to think that "sexual harassment" is a bit strong to describe this event?

[BartiiMus]

At a training session with work. 3 days, 2 nights on-site.

Around midnight (not long after the people concerned have left the bar), man A rings woman B and asks for a code to connect to the internet (we use password tokens and he'd forgotten his).

Woman says fine, come to my room. Man goes to room, then confesses he didn't come for that at all and tries to kiss her. She refuses. Man is confused saying he thought they had a "connection" earlier in the evening but she denies it. He leaves the room.

A few days later woman B tells my colleague about it. She was half-laughing about it and said she wasn't going to report it.

Last night at a party my colleague told us that there'd been "sexual harassment" during the training this summer but refused to say who had been involved. After a bit of coaxing and lots of clues from him we worked out who the man had been, and our colleague confirmed it.

I know him, I've worked with him before and he's a nice bloke. I'm not saying he didn't do this but he tried it on, was refused and left. Is that really "sexual harassment"?

To be honest, I'm a bit pissed off with the gossip colleague who told us all because it's a bit of a non-event (man tries to pull woman, woman refuses, man leaves) but he's usually highly emotive language like "sexual harassment" to describe it. She's not even reporting it. The man isn't her boss or anything and they don't work together.

I know I probably don't have all the story but I do know the gossip well and he does love to exagerate and I don't think it's very fair to man A to have people slinging mud at him like this.

So, deep breath AIBU?

@midget I'm reasonably confident that the people who don't think it's an issue are the ones who don't get out, actually. The ones who don't actually experience sexual harassment on work trips/conferences as a regular thing because they just stay in nice safe offices (or even don't work) where people don't have any excuse to break the law/societal conventions.

I get out A LOT. This year I have already had numerous work related trips to Germany, Malta, Belgium, Netherlands, Czech republic, Cyprus, France, USA, Luxembourg. In the next few months I am definitely travelling to Hungary, Belgium, Italy, Spain, USA and unless I am very creative with my shuffling off of responsibility onto someone else I will also have to go to Kazakhstan. I have been harassed in the past (and fairly recently) in many of the countries listed. And I'm really not flirty in any way.

gotthemoon how can you shake your head up and down? I'm trying to do it and it's giving me neckache

Excellent point spaniel.

seeker - at no point have I thought it was her fault/his fault - but I don't think this is sexual harassment

If she thought she was being sexually harassed, a vile thing, it is hardly likely that she would laugh about it. A slight assumption but I think a fair one, that she wasn't that bothered. Having been harassed myself, I did not laugh about it. It was not funny. Having also had drunken passes made at me, I have laughed about it and done a little bit of sick in my mouth

I've not rea everyone's points as my stress levels are going through the roof.

Yes it is harassment/assault. Men like this make up work related shit to get you on your own to assault you. They know you probably won't kick up a fuss. You might be subordinate to them either in your company or another one with links. They deliberately make sure there is something you could have done differently so you blame yourself (not invited them in to check their email, not had a drink, not said hello, not smiled, not made inane work related chit chat etc, etc). The fact that apparently so many women see it as a simple misunderstanding (as evidenced here) lets these men think what they are doing is not going to result in any repercussions for them and they might get lucky or at least get a good grope to boot! Thanks for that ladies :(

Laughing nervously or embarrassedly is not the same as laughing because something is funny. and different people react to things in different ways.

If I felt it was necessary to comment that I was't going to report something that would be because I felt it could be reported, I was just choosing not to. It seems to me from the evidence presented that the women thought there was definitely something dodgy about what happened, but was sufficiently embarrassed or upset about it to not take it further.

I'm not sure it is a fair assumption, she may have laughed from feeling uncomfortable or embarrassed as well.

If I was the woman in this scenario I might not report. I'd sure be keeping my eyes out for anyone else this guy was approaching though.

Again, that is an assumption based on your own behaviour. Lots of people do laugh about behaviour they're uncomfortable with as a defence mechanism. We simply do not know if she considered it to be harassment or not. We just know she isn't going to report it.

Many women don't report harassment but do mention an incident in passing in a neutral way to another woman because it is a way of feeling that others are aware, without having to go through official channels. That way, if something does happen to somebody else, you don't feel as responsible for not having reported it. Or maybe she was half laughing because the whole thing was half hilarious and she wasn't bothered in the slightest. We just do not know.

I think everyones opinons on it is/it is not are irellevant

If the woman felt bad, ill at ease about it. well its a bad thing

this is not university/school when a drunken yound lad tries it on

Its work

and its what SHE feels that matters, not us

And absolutely, it's about making sure you have a yes, not assuming yes until you've been slapped in the face repeatedly with a no. Twice, just to make sure you didn't really mean yes or that there was a misunderstanding.

X post, sorry.

What porce just said. That is all.

It was harassment.

Very simply because it happened in a work situation, and entry to her room was done by lying about the reason.

Yes, it happens all the time that couples get together when they work together, but imo people need to be more aware of the issues that surround this, to protect themselves as well as to protect others.

If he liked her then he could have initiated a chat, invited out for a drink or a meal and signalled his interest. That would give her the opportunity, in a controlled and safe environment, where she felt comfortable, to accept or refuse.

What happened to flirting, if a kiss is seen as the first move? When DH and I got together there were lots flirty glances, catching him watching me, small gestures that signal attraction. We had been going out as 'friends' for months before he made the first move.

LRD, yes you're right. It is, and it has

I think i'm just finding this particular case so very borderline. We know so much and so very little about it at the same time.

The short skirt example is a good one - but is much easier (for me at least) to rationalise than this bloke and his call to this woman at midnight in a hotel. (at work, i know i know)

I just find the 'men like these' and 'these men' outrage a little heavy in this case i suppose. I'm now worried i'm being very naive! Seriously.

If a sexual harassment complaint is upheld does it always result in dismisal?

Fluffy this wasn't a woman asking a man to come to her room after midnight.

This was a colleague suggesting to another colleague whilst on a work trip that they meet up briefly to exchange some information regarding to work.

I don't think it sounds like sexual harassment? He went in for a kiss, she said no and he left? He didn't force it. She invited him to the bedroom.

geegee888

Thank you.

MmeLindor Fri 14-Sep-12 13:58:01
What happened to flirting, if a kiss is seen as the first move?

First move to physical intimacy, neh?

Flirting is establishing belief that it' may be OK to progress there, depending on consent.

cheers midgem

and as for the OP

your post has left a really nasty taste in my mouth

IF she feels bad about it, I feel more sorry for her than the man

depressing

OMC
But you don't go from 'could you give Colin from accounts a quick ring to let him know that your customer cancelled the order' to having a drink with the team after a training session to SNOG.

Same as you don't go from meeting someone in a pub straight into a grope/snog without introducing yourself and having a wee chat first.

Or if you do, then you are setting yourself up for a sexual harrassment charge, cause not every woman is going to laugh that off. Quite rightly too.

Is he married or have a partner OP? Im not saying married men behave like this as a rule or norm, but it just seems odd he wanted to get her in her room and intiate intimacy rather than engage in a better way of letting her know he was interested in her. seems he was just interested in a quick no strings shag rather than responding to any true conection he may have said he felt.

It would be interesting to know what people would say if the op's story was a about two men.