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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To wonder whether a man can be raped?

180 replies

JazzAnnNonMouse · 24/08/2012 06:04

I do not mean Anally.

Reading the thread about rape being any form of non mutual enthusiasm (although I can't seem to put it so eloquently, sorry). I think it has opened my mind to what rape actually is.
I was wondering therefore can a man be raped because they have to have some enthusiasm to gain an erection. (unless drugged I guess?)

OP posts:
Spottyblancmange · 25/08/2012 08:01

Taking advantage of someone's dissociation is rape/sexual assault.

I can't believe I'm about to share this on a forum, but as a child I was abused, and I was made to insert objects in myself. Did I always say no? No, because I learnt very, very quickly that dissociating and pretending to be willing meant it was over quicker and less painfully. I actively did something, but it was still abuse.

Just because you actively do something doesn't mean you do it willingly, if for any reason the consent isn't freely given, it's not consent.

TheDoctrineOfEnnis · 25/08/2012 08:04

Ah spotty I am so sorry Sad

FallenCaryatid · 25/08/2012 08:05

A woman forced to give oral sex is actively involved.

jadebond007 · 25/08/2012 08:22

I know it isn't popular to not have a black and white view on what is rape and what isn't

BUT

I can't help thinking, what if the person doing the raping genuinely thinks it's consensual sex? It's two people's opinions, not one. It's terrible for the person who is having sex they don't want, but - and I feel awful that I can't just side with the victim in all circumstances - but but I haven't asked every single time I've had sex with someone. I've assumed it's ok. So does that mean I'm a rapist? Because if someone made it clear to me they didn't want sex, I would stop immediately. If I didn't, if I knew that they wanted me to stop and I continued then yes I'm raping them...

I'm sorry but it is a grey area. Much as I wish it wasn't. But mechanically, sex and rape are the same thing. It's a matter of what each of the two parties are thinking when it happens that makes it sex or rape.

RainingInMyHead · 25/08/2012 08:28

Trying your husband isn't alone.

I had a best friend. He was abused as a boy by his uncle. He was eight. And he told me the very worst thing is that he came to enjoy it from the physical aspect Sad he lead a very fucked up life, believed what happened to him made him gay (his words not mine). Eventually he commuted suicide in his forties.

seeker · 25/08/2012 08:34

I am not victim blaming. Name calling is not helpful.I am trying to pick through this.

What I am trying to avoid is the hijacking of women's experience by men. Sexual abuse of anyone is completely unacceptable. We can take that as read. And there are of course men who have had experiences that make them disassociate. And knowingly taking advantage of that is abuse. And if the urban myth of the predator with her Viagra/Thai sex secrets is true (it isn't) then that could be defined as rape. But we mustn't
allow this discussion to dilute the reality of rape/violent rape that is so many women's experience.

FallenCaryatid · 25/08/2012 08:40

'But we mustn't allow this discussion to dilute the reality of rape/violent rape that is so many women's experience.'

How does discussing someone else's pain and humiliation diminish or dilute the reality of women who have been raped? Is compassion and understanding a finite resource?
If a man is required to have an enthusiastic yes from a partner he is having sex with otherwise it is abusive, why is the same not true for women?
If s/he doesn't say no, does s'he want to have sex? Is silence agreement? I thought that it wasn't enough.

seeker · 25/08/2012 08:42

And where did I say consent didn't work both ways? Of course it does,

CailinDana · 25/08/2012 08:42

Jade your questions are valid, and that problem is the reason I started the other thread where I said we should move away from what rape is and isn't towards understanding what sex is and isn't. Sex should be a joining of two people where they are connected, communicating constantly either verbally or non-verbally. In a normal healthy sexual situation it should be plainly obvious to both partners whether the other person is ok or not. With me and my DH, we can both tell instantly if the other person is a bit distracted or a bit too tired to be enjoying things - and we then ask if everything's ok. For a person to genuinely not want sex and the other person not to notice at all it has to be a pretty unhealthy sexual encounter IMO where one person is just getting their jollies without paying any attention to how the other person is feeling.

That said, you can only go on what your partner is telling you. If you feel there is something wrong, ask and your partner says "No really I'm ok, don't stop" then you aren't raping them, clearly. However, I think most people if they sensed that their partner was a bit lacklustre would feel quite put off and wouldn't really want to continue.

Under the law, if the "accused" partner genuinely thinks that the other person consented then that's not considered to be rape. It never hurts to just open your mouth and ask if you're not sure though.

RumbleGreen · 25/08/2012 08:49

I don't see how a thread asking details on male experiences is hijacking if a bunch of people came onto a thread talking about women then you would have a point. At the moment though the one doing the hijacking is actually you.

fuzzpig · 25/08/2012 08:50

DH was previously married to an emotionally abusive woman. He was also on heavy medication for depression and migraine so was almost comatose at night. Even after they'd finally separated (he slept downstairs as he had nowhere else to go) he would often wake up to find her on top of him. He couldn't possibly have prevented it. I think it is sad that it would not be classed as rape - he did not consent (and there was no "you can do xxxxx when I'm asleep" agreement, that is totally different).

seeker · 25/08/2012 08:55

I son't think that this is an issue that can be discussed in any depth or helpfully in terms of consciousness raising or of defining/ changing the legal position without taking women's experience into account, surely?

Unless it's just supposed to be an anecdote thread- in most cases second hand anecdotes?

FallenCaryatid · 25/08/2012 08:57

''But we mustn't allow this discussion to dilute the reality of rape/violent rape that is so many women's experience.'

You could also put the argument that a woman who had consensual sex, went to sleep and then woke up to find the same partner having sex with her, without her consent is rape.
Doesn't that dilute the reality of rape/violent rape that happens to women across the world who are actively forced to engage in sex, who are raped and have never given permission, or ever been asked? No of course it doesn't.

RumbleGreen · 25/08/2012 09:00

What do you mean by dilute is there some sort of quota that gets used up if People talk about male victims of sexual assault, and there won't be enough for discussions on female victims??

seeker · 25/08/2012 09:08

No of course not.

But what usually happens is that men's experience is given more weight than women's- you can see this in the reporting of male violence against women and female violence against men. So once the idea of women raping men becomes public discussion (which it obviously should) we must guard against this happening.

jadebond007 · 25/08/2012 09:13

I don't often think about this, but reading this has reminded me. I was sexually assaulted at a party once.

I was asleep in a bedroom upstairs. I was feeling very unwell and I'd gone to sleep it off. A girl came in. She sat on the bed and asked me if I was alright. I really wanted her to go away but I didn't want to be rude. The next thing I knew, she was kissing me and pushing her fingers in me. It happened so quickly. I was actually too surprised to do anything about it. She was very strong. I don't know how long it went on for but I managed to wriggle away and asked her to leave. But the weird thing is, I made out like I was just tired. I didnt say get the fuck out.

She was chewing this spearmint gum and to this day, I can't stand to kiss anyone who has been chewing gum.

I honestly don't know what she thought she was doing. Did she think she'd assaulted me? Maybe she thought it was ok?? I'll never know, but to ME, she sexually assaulted me. For sure.

Maybe it can be two ways. Maybe I was attacked. And maybe she's just a totally ignorant twat.

But I can totally see how people freeze up and don't shout no.

Ahh such a horrible issue.

CailinDana · 25/08/2012 09:17

Of course that girl sexually assaulted you jade, no doubt about it. It doesn't matter whether she was an ignorant twat, being stupid isn't an excuse for committing a crime. Sorry that happened to you.

seeker · 25/08/2012 09:19

Jade- of course that was sexual assault. of course it was. No question.

jadebond007 · 25/08/2012 09:25

It was confusing. My main thought was what just happened??

And I don't feel violated by it. Or I do, but that's not my main feeling. My main feeling is being really really grossed out, like I'd picked up a slug and squished it between my fingers.

Also, I don't know if it was harder to quantify my feelings because it was a girl. Because it's hammered home that men are rapists. It's like my brain can't fit her into that role.

MrsJREwing · 25/08/2012 09:35

I was sexually assaulted a few years back in Turkey. I was being massaged, the guy pulled the towel down and groped my boobs. I was too scared and shocked to do anything. I felt repulsed. I also oddly felt turned on, it was very confusing.

BoneyBackJefferson · 25/08/2012 11:09

seeker
"surely the fact that as a man you are actually having piv sex would sort of imply consent?"

The implication being that a man must want sex to be able to get an erection.

As stated up thread somewhere, An erection can be involuntary and shouldn't be taken as consent.

OneMoreChap · 25/08/2012 11:22

seeker Sat 25-Aug-12 07:18:43
But- and I'm sorry to be basic- surely the fact that as a man you are actually having piv sex would sort of imply consent?

Having calmed down a bit.

Let me suggest this:

If I said, "Well, she lubricated, and got an orgasm. She must have wanted it." would that be in any way acceptable? No? Because that does happen in some rape cases.

Consent is given or ascertained. It isn't implied. Don't give ammunition to rapists.

OptimisticPessimist · 25/08/2012 12:12

I think seeker means that if a man has active PIV, ie he is in control of it (even if disassociated from it) then it cannot be rape unless he is only doing so through fear of his or someone else's safety? It's different to the woman being the active person and the man having an involuntary erection. If that makes sense.

BoneyBackJefferson · 25/08/2012 12:22

OptimisticPessimist
"I think seeker means that if a man has active PIV, ie he is in control of it (even if disassociated from it)"

Surely the key term here is "disassociated", if someone is disassociated they can't be in control because they have disconnected mentally from the action and are not fully consenting.

rubycon · 25/08/2012 12:58

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_sex_in_chains_case - I'm sure a lot of you are too young to remember this.