Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To wonder whether a man can be raped?

180 replies

JazzAnnNonMouse · 24/08/2012 06:04

I do not mean Anally.

Reading the thread about rape being any form of non mutual enthusiasm (although I can't seem to put it so eloquently, sorry). I think it has opened my mind to what rape actually is.
I was wondering therefore can a man be raped because they have to have some enthusiasm to gain an erection. (unless drugged I guess?)

OP posts:
OptimisticPessimist · 24/08/2012 08:36

Not saying no does not equal consent. Consent is only present when both parties are in clear agreement. A sleeping, or incapacitated, person cannot consent.

I agree with seeker that care must be taken not to minimise the crime of rape against women (and I do think that the categorisation as it stands is correct and should remain such - I think penetration is different to female on male forced intercourse), but to suggest that men should not have the same right of consent as women is madness.

Whatmeworry · 24/08/2012 08:49

You have to ascertain consent - or at least someone with a penis does. And you have to ascertain consent on each occasion... that's the way it works, or there would be no offence of marital rape

DH and I both like sleepy sex. So according to this definition he is now raping me or I am assaulting him every time?

flatpackhamster · 24/08/2012 08:49

SigmundFraude

In some countries men and women can be charged with rape. It is unbelievable that in the UK this is not the case. It is high time the law was changed, but I imagine there would be significant opposition from certain quarters.

It's entirely in-keeping with the behaviour of the party in power at the time that rape became an offence that only a man could carry out.

ChangeyMcName · 24/08/2012 08:49

I'm not about to judge your individual scenarios! I'll ask again - how in this case was the woman to know that he wanted her to stop? He didn't say no, in fact he made a decision not to say no. He presumably engaged in sexual activity. She didn't physically force him or coerce him. She initiated sex with a regular partner who did not ask her to stop.
So how could she have known? Clearly you are all rape experts, enlighten me.

Mrsjay · 24/08/2012 08:51

It would be classed as sexual assault on a man , and a man doesnt need to be enthusiastic as you put it to get an erection ,

seeker · 24/08/2012 08:51

Of course men should have the same rights to give or withold consent as women do.

But, just as there is with domestic violence, there will be - and if I'm not mistaken, have been on this thread already- people who will use the "this happens to men too" as a way of sidelining women's experience.

OptimisticPessimist · 24/08/2012 08:55

Changey you could say exactly the same about thousands upon thousands of rapes carried out by men against women. Consent is not the same as not saying no.

Whatmeworry, sleepy sex with previous consent given by both parties is not the same as someone engaging in intercourse with someone who is asleep. Asleep is not the same as sleepy, nor are two sleepy people the same as one asleep and one awake - the sleeping partner is clearly incapacitated by sleep.

TalHotBrunette · 24/08/2012 08:56

I think it was OneMoreChap's experience that made me really think. My husband has always said (when awake and sober) that he enjoys being woken with sex/oral and finds it a turn on and it was something we did quite often. I read an account here (possibly OMC's) and wondered if DH would necessarily stop me in this situation if he was not in the mood / too tired etc or if he would continue just to spare my feelings. He always insists he would but you never know do you? I would hate to be in the situation where someone was having sex with me because they felt obliged/ it had gone too far etc and so I won't do it anymore.

ChangeyMcName · 24/08/2012 08:56

Mrs jay - I would not take an involuntary response as consent. I don't need DP to verbally consent to sex - he voluntarily responds - ie puts his arms around me, kisses me, whatever. Joins in. But because explicit consent is not given, am I raping him?

And we like sleepy sex too. Yet more rape?

OptimisticPessimist · 24/08/2012 08:57

Sorry seeker, reading back I appear to have conflated you post with Changey's in that sentence. I agree with you WRT sidelining women's experience, I do not agree with Changey that if a man doesn't say no or fight hard enough then he has consented by default.

ChangeyMcName · 24/08/2012 08:58

Optimistic - 'previous consent given by both parties'? Really? So no consent needed on the night? Bit contradictory..

CailinDana · 24/08/2012 08:58

Whatme, in your relationship sleepy sex is part of your normal activity - therefore you have obtained consent as you both know you're ok with it. If it were a new relationship and your DH climbed on top of you while asleep without being aware of whether you were ok with it or not, he would be taking a massive risk - you could be fine or you could consider it to be rape. Most loving couples don't just go ahead and do something without being at least a bit cagey the first time - they gauge each other's reaction and go from there.

Changey, do you believe a woman can just use a sleeping man's body and that's ok?

Excuse the capitals but I think this needs to be said:
IF IT WAS SEX THAT YOU WANTED, THEN IT WAS NOT RAPE, NO MATTER WHAT THE CIRCUMSTANCES. IF IT WAS SEX YOU DIDN'T WANT, THEN IT COULD WELL BE RAPE.

No one can tell you you were raped if you don't feel that's what happened. What plenty of people try to do, conversely is tell people who were raped that it wasn't rape for a whole litany of reasons.

ChangeyMcName · 24/08/2012 08:59

'doesn't fight hard enough'?? You have absolutely made that up, I did not say that! I think you may have misread.

ChangeyMcName · 24/08/2012 09:01

No I don't think that's ok. Especially having personally experienced it. But that was not the case in the situation I highlighted.

I'll ask again: how was the woman to know?

seeker · 24/08/2012 09:05

My dp likes to be woken by me initiating sex too. So I do it with confidence.

I don't like it, so dp doesn't do it. He knows I don't like it because I told him.

That's what people in relationships do. People who aren't in relationships ask if it's OK. And stop immediately if asked to. Actually, people in relationships stop if asked to as well.

Original poster
JazzAnnNonMouse · 24/08/2012 09:06

So rape is subjective to personal views?
For you there isn't 'that is rape' full stop?

OP posts:
GeekCool · 24/08/2012 09:06

Well surely she shouldn't have started until he was awake?

I have a huge issue with people thinking it's ok to treat their partner as some form of blow up doll because it suits them. Sex is between two people, not one getting their rocks off at the expense of another!
She could easily have tried to wake him first to see if he was up for it.

NO excuse for what she did and I'm saddened to see people justifying it.

Original poster
JazzAnnNonMouse · 24/08/2012 09:06

Sorry that was to changey - v interested in your views as you seem to know a lot :)

OP posts:
Elephantshavewrinkles · 24/08/2012 09:08

For the poster who said if you don't say no it's not rape.

When I was 14 I was sexually assaulted. It made me hit rock bottom. This had an impact on how I saw the world and put me off wanting a boyfriend. 2 years later I felt ready to start again, I met someone and things got serious. One day we were in my room and things heated up.... However I was shaking and tears streamed down my face I didn't say no I couldn't get the words out but my partner could see I clearly did not want to have sex with him he stopped and held me until I stopped crying. Although I did not say no it would have been rape if we had continued.

Men should have the same rights. If a man is sexually assaulted then he also needs support to get through such an awful thing.

ChangeyMcName · 24/08/2012 09:09

The situation to which I am referring did not involve sleep/wake-up sex.
It was fully awake. The man chose not to tell her to stop because thereby have been an argument which may have woken others and created a potentially awkward social situation. Sexual activity happened. Apparently his regular sexual partner is now a rapist!

fluffyraggies · 24/08/2012 09:09

There is no excuse for rape. It is IMO perfectly possible for a man to be raped.

geekcool - yes she should have woken him first. What can be said about him not physically or verbally showing his objection once he was awake though?

Genuine question. About this particular case.

ChangeyMcName · 24/08/2012 09:11

Elephants - I am not making any sort of generalisation, I referred to a specific scenario on page 1, posted by invaderzim.

Are you people so keen for an argument that you are literally putting words into my mouth to disagree with and froth over?

And could someone answer my question please?

AmazingBouncingFerret · 24/08/2012 09:11

I said no once. Got a slap in the face for my troubles. Didnt say it again, does that mean all the times after that weren't rape?

ChangeyMcName · 24/08/2012 09:14

Jazz - I am expressing an opinion because I feel insulted, as a rape survivor, that the situation above is called rape. I find it a dilution of the term. It's a public forum.

StormGlass · 24/08/2012 09:14

I have to say, before reading this thread, the idea that a man could have an erection without having "some enthusiasm" had never occurred to me.

I fully agree that both parties, regardless of gender, need to consent to sex. And not saying no isn't the same as consent.