To wonder whether a man can be raped?

[JazzAnnNonMouse]

I do not mean Anally.

Reading the thread about rape being any form of non mutual enthusiasm (although I can't seem to put it so eloquently, sorry). I think it has opened my mind to what rape actually is.
I was wondering therefore can a man be raped because they have to have some enthusiasm to gain an erection. (unless drugged I guess?)

Whatmeworry, sleepy sex with previous consent given by both parties is not the same as someone engaging in intercourse with someone who is asleep. Asleep is not the same as sleepy, nor are two sleepy people the same as one asleep and one awake - the sleeping partner is clearly incapacitated by slee

Sleepy sex is started when one partner is still asleep.....or has that definition also changed?

I am even more uncomfortable with this btw:

IF IT WAS SEX THAT YOU WANTED, THEN IT WAS NOT RAPE, NO MATTER WHAT THE CIRCUMSTANCES. IF IT WAS SEX YOU DIDN'T WANT, THEN IT COULD WELL BE RAPE

I must confess that both DH and I have had sex with each other when one of us didn't really feel like it, because we knew the other one really wanted it, and in the bigger picture of the relationship you do it out of love, respect, consideration etc etc.

Now it would apear that too is rape/assault?

ChangeyMcName Fri 24-Aug-12 08:49:29
Clearly you are all rape experts, enlighten me.

www.rapecrisis.org.uk/Definitionofrape2.php
Under section 1(1) SOA 2003 a defendant, A, is guilty of rape if:

_ A intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of B (the complainant) with his penis;

_ B does not consent to the penetration; and,

_ A does not reasonably believe that B consents.

... For the offence of rape to have been committed the defendant must have penetrated you without your consent, or continued to penetrate you after you withdrew your consent, and the defendant must not have reasonably believed that you were consenting.

... The Sexual Offences Act 2003 introduced the concept of 'reasonable steps'. Deciding whether a belief is reasonable is done by considering any steps he has taken to ascertain whether she consented (subsection (2) of sections 1-4).

[My emphasis]

That clear enough.

In the case you suggest
I don't need DP to verbally consent to sex - he voluntarily responds - ie puts his arms around me, kisses me, whatever. Joins in. But because explicit consent is not given, am I raping him
You could: reasonably believe that he consents because of his action. He didn't try and push you away; he didn't withdraw away from you.

I think the law needs changing so that any individual wanting to have sex has to have an active and willing partner who gives unambiguous consent to having sex.
In the case of a man, an erection does not give consent.
ChangyMcName, I am invoking your opinion as evidence that there are double standards when it comes to the treatment of men and women over certain issues on MN.

'sorry but the man who didn't say no to his casual sex partner because he didn't want to risk an argument that may wake other people up? Not rape. Saying it is is an insult to rape survivors. The other party is not bloody psychic.'

'How, in that situation, could the woman have possibly known she was 'raping' him? He CHOSE not to say no. '

Yellowraincoatyellowraincoatyellowraincoat.

Changey by the way the other person is reacting.

StormGlass Fri 24-Aug-12 09:14:56
I have to say, before reading this thread, the idea that a man could have an erection without having "some enthusiasm" had never occurred to me.

You can get erections from stimulation it's a fairly basic spinal reflex. Many men will recall getting erections on buses, in classrooms, and having to "crouch-walk" until they can adjust their clothing circumspectly.

Whatmeworry Fri 24-Aug-12 09:15:08

I must confess that both DH and I have had sex with each other when one of us didn't really feel like it, because we knew the other one really wanted it, and in the bigger picture of the relationship you do it out of love, respect, consideration etc etc.

Now it would apear that too is rape/assault?

Did you consent to it "Oh, alright then..."; did he check, "Is it all right if I..."
Did you smile and put your arms round each other.

If so, then no, it's not.
It's really quite an easy test for you - did you consent. If so, that's fine.
If you didn't... it is rape.

DW has "let me", "Go on, then, but you'll have to be quick...", Entirely for me. She consented. I've provided non-penetrative services when I didn't feel like it, but she did. I consented. No rape/assault.

Your thread title is ridiculous, and potentially offensive. Of course a man can be raped.

However the scenario you describe wouldn't be 'rape' according to UK law at least, it's already been explained why. It could be a sexual assault though, and consent is just as important for men as for women IMO.

As for consensual, mutually-enjoyable 'sleepy sex'...not something I can ever imagine wanting to do. But I guess I'd put that in the same sort of category as couples who like to role-play 'rape' scenarios, have sex with one person tied up and gagged etc. Fine if you both like it, but you need to be very confident that it's what the other person wants.

Onemorechap point well made!

'Of course men should have the same rights to give or withold consent as women do.'

It's great that you think that.

'But, just as there is with domestic violence, there will be - and if I'm not mistaken, have been on this thread already- people who will use the "this happens to men too" as a way of sidelining women's experience.'

Or people who will use the "this happens to women too" as a way of sidelining men's experience. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this thread, and the OP, is about MEN's experience.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this thread, and the OP, is about MEN's experience."

I thought it was about rape.

I have to agree with Changey concerns - if you have a regular sexual relationship with someone, and then on one occasion said someone doesn't want to have sex, but doesn't say anything and makes no effort to stop the sexual act, how on earth is the other party meant to know that this time is not ok?

I think these discussions about sexual boundaries are really eye-opening. One night, I came home at 3am and found DP asleep in bed (he is a heavy sleeper). I crawled into bed and started giving him oral sex to wake him up. DP and I had never done anything like this before, and had only been dating a few months. He woke up, and was obviously into it, and we had sex. But I suppose, he could have woken up, been upset, and I would have sexually assaulted him. Nothing like this crossed my mind as I started the act though, I never thought, "I'm putting myself at risk of being accused of sexual assault."

'I have to agree with Changey concerns - if you have a regular sexual relationship with someone, and then on one occasion said someone doesn't want to have sex, but doesn't say anything and makes no effort to stop the sexual act, how on earth is the other party meant to know that this time is not ok?'

Do you agree that the sex of the initiator and the recipient are irrelevant in this situation?

Fallen, no I don't see why the sex of each party would matter, its the confusion over implied consent that is the issue.

Ha, before this topic I already knew I was there.

I think that men can be subjected to pychological bullying into sex. For example if a teacher takes advantage of a young teenage boy who has a crush on her. Or prehaps a mentally vunerable adult can be taken advantage of by someone who is supposed to be protecting him. Men who are co ersed into proscuition experience a form of rape.

I think the definition of rape is a complex issue. What causes major pychological damage to one person is laughed off by another.

Sex should be in the context of a loving relationship

A good friend of mine was in a club in London he had his drink spiked but he is such a big guy it made him feel really shit but didn't knock him out. The police came after he had been to the hospital and told him that there had been some women going about picking rich men and spiking their drinks taking them home and then giving them viagra with the sole intent of getting pregnant and claiming child support. They managed to track down the woman (who was pregnant, by another victim I assume) through cctv and charged her with some sort of bodily harm, if this had been a man spiking a drink with the intent of rape he would have got a much worse charge, but since in law a female can't rape a male they couldn't do anything about the intended sexual element.

"Sex should be in the context of a loving relationship"

Wow, really? Always?

See, that's what worries me. Urban myths like missy's are going to spread like wildfire. I remember something very similar circulating when I was a student. No Viagra in those days, she was just so incredibly skilled (techniques learned in Thailand, I believe) that men just couldn't resist.

Why don you think you are on the bad feminist's bench, by the way?

I did just look on the snopes website to find out more seeker, because it sounded so like the hundreds of urban myths that abound. Couldn't find anything, but there are a lot of other similar tales around.

missymoomoomee Fri 24-Aug-12 09:54:13
A good friend of mine was in a club in London he had his drink spiked but he is such a big guy it made him feel really shit but didn't knock him out. The police came after he had been to the hospital and told him that there had been some women going about picking rich men and spiking their drinks taking them home and then giving them viagra with the sole intent of getting pregnant and claiming child support. They managed to track down the woman (who was pregnant, by another victim I assume) through cctv and charged her with some sort of bodily harm, if this had been a man spiking a drink with the intent of rape he would have got a much worse charge, but since in law a female can't rape a male they couldn't do anything about the intended sexual element.

Sorry, sounds like an urban legend. Need to see a press report, or I don't believe it. Apart from anything else, viagra doesn't "make you hard". If that was the game, why wouldn't you just turkey baste the semen in? Getting child support? Seems like a lot of trouble to get CSA money

'Why don you think you are on the bad feminist's bench, by the way?'

Feminism is a very broad spectrum of opinions as well you know seeker, and I like equality in all relationships, sexual, professional, working...So I sometimes find myself disagreeing with other feminists who hold different opinions on the Patriarchy, the role of women and that there should never be any expectations placed on women to attempt to change an unequal status quo.
I'm comfortable with my position, but often feel that I'm viewed as a poor or bad feminist by more radical ones.

I don't know about the "Meh, okay, I'm not in the mood but if you're quick" sex. That's really squicky for me. It does feel kind of rape-y, even though the person consents. It's possible to consent to something you don't want to do.

At the very least it's not loving, mutually enjoyable sex really, it's more like an enhanced wank.

I think it bothers me too because it's very highly linked in my mind with some form of coercion. I'm sure there must be couples who do it because they genuinely want to make their partner happy and genuinely don't mind, but if you agree because your partner might get upset and you don't want to upset them, or because you're afraid of confronting them generally because of personal issues or a history of aggression, or if you're doing it because society/your friends/family etc are telling you that it's what a "good wife" (or husband) does, then you're not really making a free choice to do so and that's why it's problematic.

At the very least perhaps it shouldn't be normalised, people who genuinely want to do this could still carry on doing it, but it would be less expected. And it is expected/normalised, look at the amount of jokes about "lying back and thinking of England" etc.

I'm glad everyone else said "Urban legend" to that story because that was my immediate thought too!