To think that no one will ever vote conservative again

[rogersmellyonthetelly]

At least in anyone in living memory of the current government and their immoral targeting of the most vulnerable members of society.
I voted conservative at the last election to my eternal shame, I won't make the same mistake twice.

I will.

If both sides stopped "point scoring"

Maybe they would realise that both labour and conservatives are to blame for this.

And while we are at it lets also throw some blame towards those that voted against electoral reform because it wasn't exactly what you wanted.

YABU I don't understand why the Conservatives are castigated so much on MN as being "evil" and "scum" for cutting public spending which lets face it had to happen although you can argue the speed.

The worst Government policy in my lifetime is the Iraq War which is responsible for the death of hundreds of thousands of people and this is totally ignored with some even claiming that Labour care about people.
Similarly the Liberal Democrats are flamed for being dishonest yet the Iraq war was started on the premise of Weapons of Mass Destruction of which none have ever been found.

The Tories would have been in Iraq quicker than a rat up a drainpipe. They supported the war as well.

There are problems on both sides, obviously. The problem is it's very hard to see the big picture because politics and the economy are such massive areas. Things that happened 50 or 100 years ago have a massive impact and you never know how things might have gone if something different had happened.

At the end of the day, the Tories will always believe that if you work hard, you will be rewarded. That is their essential philosophy and it is one that I find so utterly ridiculous that I can't take it, or anyone who votes for them, seriously. Especially when you have people like Cameron or Osborne who have no idea what it's like to have to work to get somewhere without any support.

I agree relkir, the worst is when people blast Margaret Thatcher for destroying compassion in society (although I'm not sure how she could do this unless she has mind controlling powers) before proceeding to claim that they're going to have a party when she dies and want to piss on her grave

oliup do you know what MT did in places like Wales? What she did to the working classes in this country? You all complain about the welfare state now, but we have so many people on benefits BECAUSE OF Tory policies.

In the Welsh Valleys coal mining was uncompetitive all Thatcher did was to stop the State subsidy to them. Subsidising uncompetitive industries is madness.

My uncle was on the coal boards legal team. The mining in Wales wasn't uncompetative, it wasn't anywhere. Thatcher destroyed it purely to destroy the unions.

Coal mining was uncompetitive compared to coal mined in other countries and North Sea gas extraction.

The thing is, oliup , not all of us are 100% concerned with business business business. There is other stuff that is important too. There are countries which do well for themselves despite not having huge GDPs.

No. It wasn't. It was done to destabilise the unions.

Can't believe that some people are suggesting that the coal mines should have been left open. Even though they required an ever increasing state subsidy when there was cheaper and more environmentally friendly alternative available in Natural Gas.

I haven't voted Conservative before (always Labour) but I'd consider it next time.

I don't agree with everything they've done or said, but then there's no political party who I 100% agree with.

I think it's partly a realisation that the seemingly kind, fluffy leftist politics that I've supported in the past (because I thought that's what 'good' people do) might actually be making outcomes worse for many of the people they're supposed to help. Without personal responsibility you end up with no self respect and no independence, no motivation or aspirations.

And maybe part of it for me is moving to one of those 'deprived areas' and seeing first hand how it is (and being a victim of violent crime at the hands of these poor deprived 'kids' we're supposed to feel sorry for). Instant cure for a Guardian-reading lefty, I can tell you!

who suggested that nulit ?

headfairy

flatpackhamster Seriously??? You blame the Romanian orphanage tragedy on socialism? I'm afraid that was just down to inhumane cruelty. Nothing to do with socialism. Righties are capable of cruelty too you know. It's not an exclusive reserve of the left.

It was a direct consequence of socialism. Because it was impossible to criticise the socialist state, the Romanian orphanages were allowed to persist. Any criticism of the system was weeded out and the critics silenced.

That's what happens under a socialist system. If it happened under a system with a free press and with democratic elections it would never be allowed to persist. Under a free-market liberal system, abuses occur but are uncovered and resolved.

Also, there is absolutely no evidence reducing the 50p tax rate has increased tax receipts. As we know just about every single person who qualifies for the upper rate of tax in this country is avoiding paying their full dues at all, let alone the 45p rate.

There is good evidence that high taxes and complex tax codes encourage avoidance and evasion. OH has just done the 2010/11 tax return, and has paid £120 to an accountant to find out that there's £70 tax owed. So it's cost us £190 to pay £70 tax.

And we're still waiting for the evidence on the reduction of the 50p tax rate since it was only changed recently. You can't write it off just yet.

Of course natural gas was more competitive, the nationalised coal mining industry required subsidy from the State as it was making a loss. North Sea gas drilling did not require subsidy from the State and Thatcher was able to sell drilling rights to companies.

Add to this that coal imported from Columbia and Poland (to name just two countries) was cheaper then domestically mined coal.

Labour or the Lib Dems have hardly made cast iron cases for being voted for.

yellowraincoat

The thing is, oliup , not all of us are 100% concerned with business business business. There is other stuff that is important too. There are countries which do well for themselves despite not having huge GDPs.

How much of your family's earnings would have been prepared to pay to keep the miners in gravy? 25%? 50%? If the business is making a loss - and it was, because coal was heavy and hard to access and dirty and far cheaper from abroad - why should the taxpayer subsidise it?

flatpackhamster Yes, I would have been prepared to pay 50%, that would definitely have been something that would have happened.

yellowraincoat- Dawndonna did, she claims that coal mining was more competitive than Natural Gas extraction in the eighties.

That is not the same as saying they should have been left open.

No, I said it wasn't uncompetative. I'm not saying it should have continued as it was.
I was stating a fact, having seen the figures for the period concerned.

Yes it is as the countries energy generation requirements did not need both to be used at a mass scale so its a direct choice, if coalmining were more competitive than gas then that is the one you would choose to generate most of the energy that the country needed and vice versa which is what happened as gas was far more competitive.

People who claim that coal mining was competitive and was destroyed by Thatcher out of spite need to explain why other developed European economies such as France and Germany also shut their mines. Did they also have spiteful leaders or was it perhaps an inefficient industry that was hemorrhaging public money and there was a cheaper and cleaner replacement available in gas.

Either way, no one said the mines should have been left open or left to continue as they were doing.

I don't think it was "out of spite" I think it was a calculated move to destroy a hugely working class industry and the unions.