To think that no one will ever vote conservative again

[rogersmellyonthetelly]

At least in anyone in living memory of the current government and their immoral targeting of the most vulnerable members of society.
I voted conservative at the last election to my eternal shame, I won't make the same mistake twice.

piprabbit after the referendum, I reckon that's off the agenda for at least 20 years now.

The thing I really really don't get is people who say "I hate Tories so much" or "All Labour supporters are rabid left-wing scum". Some of my best friends have political views totally opposed to mine - I find it stimulating to discuss with them, I couldn't decide not to be friends with someone because I didn't like their politics (BNP aside).

It also seems to me that everyone actually wants the same thing - a thriving economy, support for those who need it when they need it (for life if necessary), good education, good hospitals etc etc. They just argue about the way in which it is done.

I wish they would all sit down TOGETHER and stop the party politics crap and bash out a solution which offers the best for everyone. Yeah yeah, I know, naivety is my middle name.

Oh boschy I'm in the love and peace camp with you. Plaiting my hair and singing Kum By Yar... To be honest I don't care who gets these things done, but just as long as they are done, that the poor are treated fairly and with respect, given every chance they need to get on in life, the disabled and ill are given the care and treatment they need without having to beg for it like some poorly trained puppy, that everyone pays their taxes and creates a society we all benefit from, not just those that pay more.

Yes boschy. I find the tribalism very student politics. I hate you cos you're a Tory / I hate you cos you're a left. MPs from both sides of the house have more in common with and get on each other than they'd ever let on. They certainly have more in common with each other than they do with us!

It's a point blank refusal to say "I actually agree with you on that - and here's what I bring, can it work". I don't think party politics benefits the UK whatsoever. I've come to think it's a load of egos fighting with each other. It's all about staying in power and personally keeping ahead - not about doing the best thing for the UK.

And it's all short termism too. Politicians want to keep their jobs and be elected in 4 years. They don't want to make a difficult decision that might reap rewards in 20 years (or not if the policy is abandoned) - even if it's the right thing to do. So it becomes knee jerk, populist, band wagon politics.

Boshy you aren't wrong. I find threads like this completely fuckwitted and full of utterly moronic football supporter comments.

Its all about blame and not taking responsibility. Well Labour are to blame for a lot of shit and so are the Tories. Neither is any better than the other in a hell of a lot of respects.

But I also think that a lot of people have unrealistic expectations too. They want the moon on a stick with icing. And they themselves aren't prepared to take any level of responsibility for the politics we get.

Truth is, that governments have to make difficult decisions that the electorant don't like, for their benefit. The minute you start playing populist politics on every single subject, you end up with a problem in the long term than someone has to pay for - and yep thats you and me. Until the public starts having realistic expectations and is prepared to accept bad stuff as well as good as they come along, then we'll have this boom / bust type situation.

It really isn't just the people at the top to blame. Nor is it the bankers.

Not to mention, too many people have a very simplistic and narrow interest and understanding of politics for the most part which doesn't help matters.

In order to sort out the problems we have as a nation - ANY party that was in power would be doing very similar things right now, and I think some people are extremely naive to think that things would be vastly different under a Red government compared to a Blue/Yellow government, or indeed a Blue or Yellow government.

We need all politicians to start ignoring populist ideas that are set up for 5 years and pass on problems further down the line and we need to shift things in terms of generational politics where all parties make decisions for the benefit of all of us, rather than things being done on party lines.

Yes I'm living in a dream world, but at least I can see what the problems really are instead of playing flag waving for which ever party.

(smile)

Our slogan will be "we won't give you problems, we'll give you solutions" :o

sorry about my poor smile, how DO you do those square brackety jobs? (see, I KNOW you will have a solution...!)

on my keyboard the square brackets are next to the P.... or you could do a : and an o to give you a :o

EmilieFloge
^Flatpackhamster, it's a shame you took the trouble to quote my entire post and then add something at the end which presumably was meant to make a point, and I don't understand at all...sorry.
Perhaps you could clarify what you are trying to say, you know, in idiot terms, for me?^

Let me clarify then. You're 'frightened' of what the Tories are going to do, when what they're going to do is reduce the welfare state to the size it was in 2005, which is when Labour were in power.

Presumably you liked what Labour were doing in 2005, so why is it frightening when it's done by Cameron and Clegg?

Thankyou. That's clearly not the only thing they are going to do, so why do you assume that's the aspect of their policy that is worrying me?

Can't agree with you Hmmmm

In the last budget benefits for the victims of the recession (caused by the banking sector) who are unemployed were reduced, whilst taxes for those earning over £40k were also reduced by 2%

How can that not be fundamentally and morally wrong?

Let's kick all the poor scum while their down and give the money to us the rich.

NOT all govs are the same even now - altho I agree the idea of socialism does seem to have been lost somewhere in the early in 90s.

Personally I would vote Green if there were an election tomorrow.

ahh, now I know! [win]
sorry, as you were.

oops I meant

EmilieFloge

Thankyou. That's clearly not the only thing they are going to do, so why do you assume that's the aspect of their policy that is worrying me?

Because you specifically referred to 'things that have been taken away by the Tories'. The only thing they've 'taken away' is welfare handouts. NHS budget remains the same, education budget remains the same.

Pickgo

Can't agree with you Hmmmm

In the last budget benefits for the victims of the recession (caused by the banking sector) who are unemployed were reduced, whilst taxes for those earning over £40k were also reduced by 2%

How can that not be fundamentally and morally wrong?

OK, let's talk morality. Labour spent more than they took in taxes every year from 2001 to 2010. They built up large debts to fund this welfare state. They bought votes, not only with today's money, but with the money for the next 20 years.

Where's the moral justification with spending tomorrow's taxes today?

If cutting taxes brings in more tax revenue, that's a good thing, isn't it? Isn't that the point of tax? So if it brings in more money to have taxes lower, then let's have taxes lower.

And if we can't afford to have such a large welfare state because we aren't taking in enough tax, then we either have to raise taxes, or cut spending.

NOT all govs are the same even now - altho I agree the idea of socialism does seem to have been lost somewhere in the early in 90s.

Perhaps it was the sight of the devastation wrought by Socialism on half the world that did it? The toxic rivers, the hunger and misery, the Romanian orphanages.

Personally I would vote Green if there were an election tomorrow.

They are the largest far-left party in the UK, because all the far-lefties who departed Labour in the early 90s went to the Green party.

flatpackhamster Seriously??? You blame the Romanian orphanage tragedy on socialism? I'm afraid that was just down to inhumane cruelty. Nothing to do with socialism. Righties are capable of cruelty too you know. It's not an exclusive reserve of the left.

Also, there is absolutely no evidence reducing the 50p tax rate has increased tax receipts. As we know just about every single person who qualifies for the upper rate of tax in this country is avoiding paying their full dues at all, let alone the 45p rate.

The 50% tax rate was cut because it was too high and completely unfair. Unfair tax policies encourage tax avoidance.

It is not giving money to the rich to tax them slightly less, it is simply allowing them to keep more than half of what they have earned.

Can you point to any evidence that it reduced tax avoidance? Was there a sudden fall in tax avoidance after it was dropped?

The government said they were dropping the 50p tax because they wanted to encourage business people to stay in the UK and provide jobs through their businesses to British people. Is there any hard evidence that a) they were deserting the country in their droves and b) that their businesses have actually provided any new jobs, given that unemployment seems to be remaining fairly stable at around 2 million (apologies I don't have the full figures in front of me)

I really don't want to turn this in to a political slanging match - hence I'd really like to see hard evidence to back up claims (and yes, I know statistics can be manipulated to say whatever you want)

I always laugh at the left who want a dossier of proof of instances yet when they are given the proof of benefit fraudsters, feckless workshy living off state handouts who are not even willing to do a bit of work experience in Tesco, or profligate vote buying projects that labour wasted billions on they claim that the evidence is fabricated by only must be a only a daily fail article.

No, but then I didn't claim that cutting the 50% tax rate reduced tax avoidance.

I said that having a 50% tax rate encourages avoidance, which I believe it probably does. If I ever earned enough to pay that much tax, I'd want to pay a fair share, but I wouldnt expect The government to take the piss out of me. And if they did, then I'd be trying to avoid ways of allowing them to.

Brown wasn't stupid was he?

13 years in govt and he brings in 50% when he knows he's getting voted out.

so that the condems have to restore the status quo at political cost to themselves.

Not stupid.

I'm sorry Novack I forgot I was supposed to blithely accept everything you say as being the gospel truth.

I do agree there are indeed people who abuse the benefit system. And those people are indeed scum. The documented level of disability benefit abuse is 0.5%, sometimes I think whilst you don't turn a blind eye to cheats, you have to accept some will happen, but the alternative (making all disabled people submit to humiliating assessments to prove the level of their disability) is more damaging to society.

I'm at work, so I will expand that thought a little later... I'm not saying you should accept abuse of the system, but if you make the system so cheat proof that actually no one gets the benefits they need the geniunely vulnerable suffer more.

I'm sure you'll come up with some killer blow to obliterate my argument, and maybe you'll have won, but I care more about vulnerable people than a few scumbags who cheat.

there is a documented effect on higher tax rates, and you can gain more income by lowering it in some cases.

guess we'll find out on that score.

Cheats and actually in need of DLA are to different things. Everyone agrees on cutting out benefit cheats and nobody is against the truly in need getting the safety net of the state stepping in with handouts for them. That does not mean that everyone who is receiving DLA is deserving of it and needs it to avoid being destitute.

State handouts should be means tested and go the needy not the greedy.