To not to want to go out with my SIL and nephew

[GimmieChocolate]

Going to be a long one so get your cuppas and hobnobs ready!

My SIL has a 4 year old son who's quite, um, lively. Whenever they come to our house he has to be centre of attention, running around, jumping up and down, generally being very annoying. He interrupts, thinks it's acceptable to demand things etc... He's also the same when out.

This week I met them in town with my 10 week old DD and we went for lunch. Nephew was not only child in restaurant of his kind of age but he was the only one running up and down not sitting in his seat, being loud. We were talking about my DD and he kept saying "look at me, look at me, look what im doing, look at me" as for all of a minute it wasnt about him. He was given his options for lunch which when arrived he had cut into small pieces for him which he then ate with his fingers!! At 4!! There was a pot of mayonnaise put on the table which he just put his hand into, licked and then did same again so no one else could then really have any, and then went to touch my DD. I very quickly stopped him as yes ok I might be a bit pfb, but i didn't want Germy, grubby, sticky mayonnaise hands on my DD! He was then having his drink and flicking the straw around so I kept getting bits of juice flicked at me. I did say to him "you've just flicked your drink on me" and he just carried on. To be honest I did not enjoy the whole lunch. And by the way, the whole eating with hands thing is not unusual, I've never seen him use cutlery.

Fast forward to walking around town, I wanted to get DD a few bits of clothes and when I'd paid for them he just turned and said " can you buy me a present now" I was completely shocked that he just came out with it and said "it's not polite to ask for things" to which he replied "don't be silly yes it is so can you buy me a present" I obviously didn't buy him anything but he went on and on about it until he got into a strop!

We then all went into another shop where SIL got him a paddling pool but that wasn't good enough, no, he had a full on tantrum as she wouldn't buy him any other toys from in there. I was mortifiyingly embarrassed to be seen with them if I'm honest.

She wants to meet up regularly so she can see my DD, her niece, but I really do not want to be out with her DS. That behaviour is quite normal for him and I find it embarrassing and just quite unacceptable for a child to behave. If it was a one off I could understand, but he's like it every time I've seen him!

Am I really BU that I don't want to be out with him?

Thread is moving so quickly by the time i respond i am about 10 posts down aarrgh.

My previous post about 'come back when she's 15' was in response to clem who said her dd was 7 and not a brat. It was a joke based on all the come back when your dc are 4.

Yes trying I am rigid and quite inflexible, and sorry but i can say catagorically what my boundaries are now and they wont change. But they aren't outrageously unrealistic either. They tend to be of the not throwing food, punching people variety.

As for your point bunnyjo no i do not judge crying or tantrums to be bad behaviour when they are responses to justified reprimands (as in your example). I would rather see that than a child flicking drink while a parent looked on adoringly. (btw i love the 'he loves chips' example early on in the thread).

Going to post this now and i bet it doesn't make sense as the thread has moved on!

Everyday CAN be an adventure if you make it so

:) yy clemette

It's the days when I'm too tired and distracted to engage them that it all goes to shit and I am ashamed of them and myself for my crap reactions.

DD1 (4) just came in to tell me proudly and excitedly how she helped Daddy to clean the bathroom. There really is nothing too boring if you approach it right :o

It just takes resourcefulness and energy, things often in short supply for the parent of littlies.

spuddy-have you not posted before about your parents and how they fucked you up with their behaviour though? so I find it strange that you are extolling their parenting skills now? expecting a 4 year old to sit quietly and read the paper is actually not really that normal imo!

Apologies of course if I have confused you with another poster....

Fanjo, when I say plan I mean I pick up on her tired cues and we start getting settled for nap before it comes overtired cries, or if I want to go out we do it as activity time so she can have a good look around I can talkt to her, then she has her nap in the pram etc. By understanding her needs I am able to deal with them before she cries.

I've said already he wasn't ignored, she was asleep so had no attention until she woke for nursing.. For most of time he was being talked to and interacted with. It was only when we briefly started talking about her that look at me's started! I've also said I was praising him for holding side of pram and "helping me push DD". I do acknowledge when he's being nice!

Wow gimme you just sound like the most perfect parent.Really.....

zelda spade a spade. How do you know a child is a "brat"? How much of their time do they have to spend misbehaving for you to give them such a label? If they are happy 75% of the time and misbehave 25% are they "happy" or "brattish."

Of all judgemental behaviour I HATE that from those who write off children.

that would of been my ds at 4 he was uncontrollable although he would of been told off and food removed for throwing it but at 6 he still finds it impossible to sit quietly and still and we still cant take him shopping without him running off, touching everything and acting up, or striking up pointless conversations with anyone who gives him eye contact, we havnt had him in a cafe or similar for over a year its just not do-able, we could never do cinemas or museums or indoor days out we now know ds has sensory processing difficulties and is really over stimulated when people are around or hes outwith the house, he appears a naughty attention seeking boy and he has little understanding of consequences so years of removing him from the situation, naughty steps and the like achieve nothing he needs to be constantly engaged i know people think its poor parenting they have no idea difficult children are exhausting and the last thing parents need is people making judgements about them on the internet. The behaviour may be normal and down to poor parenting but who knows

Yes, i am now sounding like i am purposely going to make my children miserable, dragging them round with to do a series of mundane grown up things that just thinking about even makes me want to flick my drink at people for some entertainment!

But i am not saying don't bring colouring books/play games etc . I am saying if they still can't behave then yes sometimes intervention and being taken home is the best option. I see so many parents pleading with children to behave. But sometimes i think you just have to leave your meal and go home. (i have also done this when DP is being an arse - at the beginning of our relationship!)

Gimmie you have so much ahead of you. Your daughter is going to cry from teething pain, separation anxiety, maybe because she won't want to stop breastfeeding, because you won't let her grab things in a supermarket, because she won't want to eat avocado, because you try and strap her into a car seat/pushchair and she doesn't want to. This list will go on and on. Do yourself a favour and stop setting yourself up for a fall. Otherwise parenting is going to be VERY stressful for you.

goran no my point was that wasn't right - sorry. I thought i said that. I said there should be a happy medium. Not expecting a little adult in a kind of pre-rousseaunian ideal but not basing every activity around them too.

spuddy, did it work on DP?

Certainly did - he never did it again!

worrysome I would bet you weren't twiddling your thumbs while your ds did those things though. personally I would never look sideways at a parent who was trying to manage things. If the parent was letting it all happen and never stepped in on the other hand I might start to think this was at least part of why their child was playing up.

"i can say catagorically what my boundaries are now and they wont change. But they aren't outrageously unrealistic either. They tend to be of the not throwing food, punching people variety."

It's not that your boundaries are unrealistic, it's that they are so vague as to be meaningless.

There aren't many parents who are fine about their kids punching people and throwing food.

And yet their children occasionally punch other children and throw food.

How you enforce boundaries and teach good behaviour is where this gets interesting and hard.

Just saying "my kid won't be allowed to punch other children" is about as useful as someone who has never stood in front of a class of teenagers insisting that they wouldn't put up with any misbehaviour.

You work out your approach to classroom discipline as you teach classes, and you must always be alert and responsive to the individuals you are dealing with.

4 year olds are still only learning how to be in the world as "big girls and boys". Teaching them how to behave is not simple.

As one might hope a teacher would realise.

actually athing growing up in chiswick i have seen lots of parents think it's adorable to let their dc throw food and think it is entirely acceptable to 'express themselves' by punching and kicking me or an animal.

The flicking drink thing in the OP is a case in point.

worrysome, I feel your pain, my DD has ASD and probably ADHD and usually she is very good when out and trots along by my side, I have to hang onto her tightly and constantly talk to her and reassure her to keep her calm, and usually she is, but if she is tired she will charge around and grab things off shelves in shops, she also can't speak so makes "bratty" girning noises when she is unhappy..oh how the cats bum mouths come out, people don't realise the immense amount of work we have put in do they?

I detect a note of sarcasm there Goran! Why on earth is understanding your child and dealing with their needs to prevent them distress a bad thing? Maybe I should ignore her and let her cry/scream? Or maybe that would be distressing for us both so I could notice she yawning and not interested in playing anymore/getting bit fussy, then take her upstairs, wind down for 5 minutes to stop the fussing and let her happily suck her thumb to sleep rather then cry and get upset? God I'm an awful mother aren't I?!

and yes I know that is a different situation from OP, I was just sympathising with a fellow stressed parent

also, it is much easier to plan and accommodate for a baby than a mobile demanding toddler/older child Gimmie., you might get a shock.

Op , some adults are little annoying shites .

Fact is most started out as little annoying shites as children , partly because their parents didn't teach them and partly because that's their personality types.

Not everybody is nice , well manered and polite . Some people are vile and obnoxious attention seekers . Personality is firmly formed during childhood . I'm not suggesting it's totally fixed by age 5/6 ( Freud had theory on it ) , but a big chunk is set by the time the brain has mostly finished developing at around age 7 .

I think puberty has a developmental effect on personality types too , some Mh illnesses have a puberty onset ( or at least thats when they are discovered or dx) .((the reason for the tangent is to explain what I mean , frontal lobes Are still developing up to early 20s , they have the " conscious" , which is why most teens are selfish . It's not always entirely their fault ))

Obviously if a child is taught right from wrong , and how to behave , it will be a more sociable person , more likeable , and easier to be around .And less difficult to parent .

I'm quite willing to be flamed here , but as a mother of 5 birth children , stepmum to 3 , auntie to 12 , and having used to be a child myself I think I'm qualified to say there is nothing worse than a Feral brat , and 9 out of ten times it's the parents lack of good patenting skills at fault.

ADHD is different , of course , as is all special needs . But ADHD children can still be taught manners and to be polite . ( cant stop the impulsiveness ) It can be managed , you just avoid the situations when you know it will cause the child to behave in a maner that is embarrassing to the adults , and upsetting to the child .( because ADHD children don't do it deliberately , they don't want to be "bad" or get into trouble )

I don't think Ops nephew (?) has ADHD , just that her sil hasn't got a clue how to cope with her spirited boy. I used to exhaust my son at parks / long walks ect before we went out to eat , so he was tired and wanted to stay in his seat and not run about ...no excuse for not using cutlery .Children who don't use it will catch threadworms more .( fingernails and all that ) < boak> . Tell your Sil that ...next time you see nephew I guarantee he will be using his knife and fork !

He doesn't sound like he has ADHD to me either. But I would be wary of generalising that "all children with ADHD can be taught manners and to be polite"

My 4yo pfb is pretty well-behaved compared to his peers, but on his worst day would exhibit most if not all of the behaviours described in the OP.

The DN is not the problem. The problem is 90% his mother's not responding appropriately, and 10% his aunt's not responding appropriately.

(I think the OP is crediting the DN with a level of understanding beyond his years. Little boys don't get hints.)

Responding appropriately means both providing stimulation - so in an unstimulating environment that means talking about Tree Fu fucking Tom ad nauseam or asking him to "find something blue" or similar until your ears bleed - as well as correcting bad behaviour.

Another time, a better response to "gizza present" is something like "oh dear, that's not a nice way to ask; I don't buy presents for little boys who ask so rudely" etc. A better response to straw flicking is "oh dear, when you flicked your straw you flicked water/juice in my face; I didn't like it; please stop, or I shall have to ask SIL to take your straw away". Little boys are not subtle, nor are they mindreaders. They need explicit instructions and explanations.

they really dont fanjo, ds seems to have some traits similar to asd too always asking questions and needing to know whats happening and when etc its really draining, ds is the opposite of your dd and very verbal he literally never stops talking, or making little noises i know ds far as special needs go hes very mild compared to others but its still very hard

basically the reason i posted as you dont know if this boy has any additional needs and its not unusal not to know at 4, at 4 i thought ds was just a naughty child and i couldnt control him. Its not always possible as said above to avoid the situations where the child will play up if that was the case ds would never leave the house or have visitors!

I always found the more annoying the child , the more direct you have to be .

Flicking juice from a straw would get a " child's name , stop flicking juice or you juice will be taken away"

Buy me a toy would get " no , it's not your birthday or Christmas "

Interrupting adults talking would be more difficult ...if the child had something to do ...then the child would be asked not to interrupt . If the child was bored because there was no child things to do/ play , then I would finish what I was saying and give the child some attention when apropriate .

OP, are you going to go out with them again?