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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To consider gina?

288 replies

Pickles77 · 22/06/2012 18:52

Okay AIBU to consider buying a gina ford book? I have the mumsnet baby book which is great... But got the impression most mumsnetters don't approve of gina ford? I'm not sure I will, I'm just intrigued by the fuss? And want to be the best mum
I can be...

OP posts:
DoMeDon · 24/06/2012 21:50

I did GF, I had a contented baby and toddler. I highly recommend it to anyone. It's very practical bu,t like any boo,k you take what you want from it.

spleenyone · 24/06/2012 21:57

Gina Ford worked for me...if you need routine she's the one to read!

ThoughtsPlease · 24/06/2012 22:14

I have used the 'principles' of Gina Ford with all 3 DC, all exclusively breastfed. The first 2 girls slept 11pm-7pm at around 7 weeks, and I dropped the 10/11pm feed around 12 weeks. My DS nearly 7 weeks has slept 11pm-7am since 5 weeks.

I believe the key things to take from Gina, are feed feed feed loads in the day, while she spaces feeds out, she suggests feeding for a long time, I have tended to just feed more often and has seemed to work better for my DC, but they still get the same amount.

KingscoteStaff · 24/06/2012 22:53

Both mine were Gina babies from 4 weeks with no hassle at all. It made me feel incredibly safe and suited 2 very different characters.

I think you read all the books during pregnancy and then choose the one that suits YOU. If I'd been doing the 'going with the flow' method that my best friend used then I would have been stark staring bonkers within 3 months. But then if she's used Gina she would have been the same. Different mums, different strategies.

nothingbyhalves · 24/06/2012 22:59

we borrowed her book. dh threw it across room after reading saying it was impossible. However, i took from it the basic idea of routine and it really worked for us. To this day our twins who are 2 and a half seem to prefer a routine.

Pickles77 · 25/06/2012 08:54

I think GF will work from what ive read so far as im very much a routine person in every aspect of my life.
Dog walked at set times, stick kettle on at set times. I think i have mild OCD. and also i dont have very much confidence in myself and i live with my step mum and dad who havent had much contact with small babies so i think GF might provide the reassurance i need.
But i still have a mountain of other books to read including BW

OP posts:
threeleftfeet · 25/06/2012 09:35

Pickles if you think it'll work for you go for it! But please remember you can change it to suit you. Gina Ford is not a mum (nor does she have any childcare qualifications) and you will be more of an expert at being a mum to your baby than she is. If your instinct (or your baby's) tells you to do something otherwise don't be afraid to listen to it.

I've seen some new mums get really stressed trying to fit into GF when their baby simply hasn't been suited to it. If you can't get your baby to sleep at set times, please remember it's not a failure on your part! And if you find yourself trying for hours to get your baby to sleep and start thinking "why am I doing this?" then remember you don't have to!

We let DS sleep when he wanted to, and he fell into a routine by himself. It took zero effort from us. If it works for you brilliant, but if it doesn't you won't be making a rod for your own back (despite what the book might say!).

ilovejackreacher · 25/06/2012 10:22

I had a super-easy baby the first time round who worked out his own great routine - slept really well, leaving me heaps of time for reading crap Jilly Cooper books that my mum sent me and generally really enjoying mat leave. Anyway, out of interest I took a look at GF and ended up in tears and feeling totally inadequate when previously I'd felt really together. It was binned.

(btw, DS2 showed me what a normal newborn experience was like but I still had no desire to pick up GF again and in retrospect it really wasn't so bad and I am very glad that I followed a) my baby and b) my instincts.)

bishboschone · 25/06/2012 10:31

Yanbu... Read it before you decide . My gf babies have both slept from 7-7 with no wakings at all at 12 weeks . Worth a shot non?

buttonmoon78 · 25/06/2012 11:17

I've had 3 sleepers and 1 non sleeper. None of them GF babies.

A friend did GF with her 1st and it worked ok. They and my S&BiL were at ours for a meal and the friend's dd was 6wk - when GF says to drop the late pm nap. She howled from 3.30 til they left at 7 (when she was 'allowed' to sleep as she was in her car seat). SiL said she'd never do that to her children.

FF to now. Her dc1 was put on GF by 2 weeks. He didn't suit brilliantly but when it failed SiL blamed herself. She had PND for months and much of it seemed to centre around her dc not fitting with the routine. But if she didn't follow the routine then the world was going to fall in. DC2 is doing the same - again it's her fault or his fault, not that a rigid routine is not suiting.

IME GF tells you if you follow the routine then all will be right with the world. If things don't work brilliantly then she doesn't seem to make allowances for that - although, I've not read the latest version.

FWIW the old version told you to feed on demand for a week. From 1 wk the baby was to be put into a feeding schedule. Again - perhaps the new one is different though, but 1wk is not enough time to build up a decent supply/demand balance.

buttonmoon78 · 25/06/2012 11:18

Not enough for most people anyway.

Declutterbug · 25/06/2012 12:43

What I find interesting is that people aim to get the baby to sleep for set hours and are delighted when they do it by a certain age. This is very parent-centric. No-one seems to ask what the child's biological sleep needs are and how they can best be met (without the parent going insane Wink!)? Is sleeping 11pm-7am actually 'good' or desirable for a very young baby?

Certainly GF and other routine-based methods seem to 'work' for some families and some babies, and definitely don't for others.

I think it's helpful to be aware of what is normal sleep and what can be expected, so that new parents have realistic expectations.

ISIS is a fabulous source of information on this topic, all of which is evidence-based and referenced. If you like reading detail then the Health Professional section has even more info. I've yet to nottice research references in childcare books, especially those written by individuals who have no relevant qualifications.

naturalbaby · 25/06/2012 13:08

I ignored the night time sleep 'instructions' from GF, by my 3rd baby I just knew he wasn't going to sleep through until nearer 12 months than 12 weeks no matter how strict we were with following the routines.

The day time nap times fitted 2 of my babies perfectly so that's basically all we followed. I found the book followed their biological sleep pattern pretty well, except day time naps were usually a little short. General tips such as 'don't let baby sleep past __pm if you want them to go sleep at 7pm' worked really well.

QueenKong · 25/06/2012 13:43

Just had another skim through it and it completely undermines breastfeeding throughout. She pays lip service to 'feeding often' but there is a load of examples of 'baby not sleeping through until offered formula before bed - this means mum wasn't producing enough milk for baby'. Also some of the terminology she uses is just wrong - emphasis on 'completely emptying a breast' which is nonsense and confusing, it's a river not a lake. She also doesn't seem to recognise cluster feeding at all.

So while it may be possible for some mothers to bf and follow her routines, there is also a hell of a lot that may make a new mum question her supply etc and dent her confidence in her ability to feed her baby, by setting unrealistic sleep targets.

buttonmoon78 · 25/06/2012 13:45

I agree wholeheartedly QK. Cluster feeding happens because you don't feed enough in the day in GF land. What happens when you cluster feed for 24 hours of every damn day? There's no help for that.

And that's what I meant before. GF is fine if you and your baby conform to her ideals. If not... well she doesn't address that. Which leaves you feeling that either you or your baby are to blame.

GeekCool · 25/06/2012 13:53

I bought the baby whisperer book as was looking for ideas on how to settle ds. It was brilliant. The routine is kinda loose so I picked up what I wanted from it, but the shh-pat technique worked wonders for ds and it didn't feel strict or harsh on a 4 month old as I could still cradle him at the beginning.

KatAndKit · 25/06/2012 13:58

You can only feel "to blame" if you think that you ought to conform to gina's way. If it doesn't work for you find something else that does and move on without any guilt.

I agree that she is not an expert on breastfeeding and you try telling my baby he has to wait till after his bath for the second breast and you had better have ear defenders on! But as I have said already, not all of it will work for everyone. My ten week old seems to have put himself pretty close to Gina's feeding routine for a 4-6 weeker which is good as it involves more frequent feeding. I'm not bothered that he hasn't "moved on" to four hourly feeds, and I know enough about breastfeeding to know that any less often is probably unrealistic at the moment.
I just do not understand why someone would get depressed just because their baby was not following Gina's routine to the letter. The baby has not read the book and it is a suggestion that might or might not work for you, not a law that you need to adhere to.

I also ignore her advice about offering cooled boiled water to settle a baby as I think it is nonsense. And I ignore her advice to leave the baby to cry and see if he will settle himself as I know mine won't so no point upsetting myself and him with a crying meltdown. And I drink cups of tea and glasses of water whenever I damn well feel like. And no way am I getting up before the baby to express milk, that can wait till later.

QueenKong · 25/06/2012 14:00

That is exactly what happened to my SIL. As it happens, her baby slept through from about 8wo. But SiL still drove herself crazy because her baby wouldn't nap in the cot - only in the buggy, in arms or in the car. GF is very insistent that all naps happen in the baby's room so my SiL struggled with this for months. Unfortunately, she wasn't able to just 'take the bits that worked'. She completely lost perspective, and didn't stop to think that if her baby was already sleeping through, the naps probably didn't matter too much. Instead she completely focused on following the routine to the letter and stressed herself and her baby out needlessly.

I appreciate that she obviously had her own issues (borderline PND) and most people will be able adapt the routines as required - but she was an anxious, vulnerable FTM who saw GF's way as the only way and it made her miserable.

monkeymoma · 25/06/2012 14:47

"baby not sleeping through until offered formula before bed - this means mum wasn't producing enough milk for baby'" I think the point of those examples is that she tells you how to make sure you DO keep produce enough and how to give big satisfying feeds so that the baby isn't always tearing at your breast never satisfied... so that you don't have to end up suplimenting with formula

I was clueless at first, I was letting him to silly little pointless 2 min feeds and he was always starving and annoyed and I wasn't producing nice big satisfying feeds till I learnt how to draw the feeds out so that they were nice and long and filling... also I wouldn't have been able to maintain constant cluster feeding as my nipples were cracked and I screamed in pain when I fed.. I needed the gaps between big satisfying feeds to heal... LLL etc were USELESS because they kept telling me to "keep doing what you're doing" even though I'ld said I COULDN'T! - If I'ld followed their advice I'ld have had to give up BFing, with GFs advice I was able to BF or 13 months

rebelwithoutababy · 25/06/2012 15:12

Not read whole thread so I'm probably repeating what others have said. I used GF from about 4 weeks and found it really helpful. I do have some maternal instincts (whatever they are!) but I didn't find that helped in terms of knowing how long babies need to sleep for, and I was finding BF really hard. I also like routines and predictability generally and was v unprepared for how little those two things feature in newborn life! So I found GF really helpful. I also read Baby Whisperer, but didn't really see it as very different! (you end up in basically the same routine!). Lots and lots of friends admitted after I had told them I did GF that they had used her/were using her, but would never had told me if I hadn't admitted it first...make of that what you will.
I don't think any of us should beat eachother up for our parenting choices (although I know it's a popular MN pastime) - GF worked for me because it suits my personality, and my LO (now 8 months and was EBF successfully until I went back to work FWIW) is a very contented baby who sleeps through from 7-7 and does great naps. Personally I think this is down to her routine (as she is v spirited and I suspect otherwise would sleep as little as possible for fear of missing out on life). However, I very much respect those mums who manage to achieve a happy balanced life and child without such a routine or without reading books.
So I think if you're interested, have a look at a couple of different books - lots of recommendations here - and see what feels right to you. And know that that might change once the baby arrives!
Oh, one last thing, I do agree with the posters who found GF made them feel like a failure if they didn't follow the routines to the letter: I did find that a slight problem, but I think my dodgy hormones made it difficult to keep it all in perspective! I will personally still use her again for my next one...

naturalbaby · 25/06/2012 15:31

I can't think of any advice I followed to the letter though.

Declutterbug · 25/06/2012 18:33

"I was clueless at first, I was letting him to silly little pointless 2 min feeds and he was always starving and annoyed and I wasn't producing nice big satisfying feeds till I learnt how to draw the feeds out so that they were nice and long and filling..."

In terms of breastfeeding and breastmilk production the above is nonsense. It is not how lactation works from a biological perspective. Spacing feeds causes the body to prodcue less milk. When milk is left 'stored' in the breast a protein called Feedback Inhibitor of Lactation (FIL) accumulates, and this causes milk production to decrease. Frequent drainage of the breasts signals for more milk to be made. Frequent feeds, even if small lead to an abundant milk supply. Infrequent feeds leads to less milk. Also, really full breasts cause a feed to begin with a large volume of lower calorie milk (less fatty, more sugary), whereas frequent small feeds from well-drained breasts (like when a baby cluster feeds) means the baby is getting higher fat more filling and calorific milk. Try looking in a lactation textbook for verification of this Smile. I'm not aware that the author in question has any lactation qualifications/training.

Babies also have very small stomachs and are designed to feed little and often. There is no evidence that sleep duration is associated with size of feed or calorie intake that I'm aware of either (except to say that a baby who really isn't getting enough milk for whatever reason may be v unsettled and not sleep well, or conversely may be a very sleepy newborn -a v worrying scenario).

"also I wouldn't have been able to maintain constant cluster feeding as my nipples were cracked and I screamed in pain when I fed.. I needed the gaps between big satisfying feeds to heal... "

This suggests that all was not going well with breastfeeding Sad. Advice to just keep going is shocking and would be inappropriate. Did you complain? Someone giving out that sort of advice in your situation sounds like they might need re-training.

In the situation you describe the baby might well not be satisfied, as milk transfer into the baby might also be inefficient and slow -that often accompanies the soreness, and both are symptoms of very common problems that can often be easily rectified with expert support. I am sorry you did not get this Sad.

The difficulty with extrapolating from individual cases is that often it doesn't tell us much. You obviously managed to breastfeed despite following advice to space feeds etc. In your case your supply was not diminished and all worked out well. This would not be the case for many mums and babies Sad. Milk production simply doesn't work the way described, and although some mums and babies obviously can manage feeding this way, lots cannot.

buttonmoon78 · 25/06/2012 18:40

QK exactly. For some, that confusing, scary time of having a newborn/small/large baby totally prevents you from having any sense of perspective.

SiL had a total meltdown when Christmas shopping as her dh didn't turn up at the allotted time for a feed but 15 mins later as their ds had been happy playing with my dcs at home. The world didn't fall in. He didn't sleep any better or worse than any other night but she had had a full on paddy in the shopping centre.

Obviously, it's a case of what works for some doesn't with others, which refers to babies as well as mums but on the whole, having witnessed how badly it can affect a vulnerable new mum, I can't say I'd recommend GF's or any other prescriptive parent-led routine. As plenty of people have said, the baby has not read the book and whilst some can cope with that, some just can't. And it's not always the ones you think.

monkeymoma · 25/06/2012 19:20

Declutterbug, GF actually had me having LESS space between feeds then DS would have demanded so your reply doesn't really apply to my situation. Given the choice he would have slept 5 or 6 hrs between day feeds, then woken up too ravenous to latch properly and tear at me for short pointless feeds that didn't fill him up, and continue doing that for some time till he passed out in an angry frenzy.. then sleep for another 5 or 6 hours. On GF I had the Gap down to a max of 3 hrs betweeen feeds and then he was calmer and able to feed properly without damaging me and had a good satisfying feed. My supply was kept up on GF because it wasn't big long gap, then painful unsatisfying cluster feed, then big long gap...

BartletForAmerica · 25/06/2012 19:31

"The difficulty with extrapolating from individual cases is that often it doesn't tell us much. You obviously managed to breastfeed despite following advice to space feeds etc. In your case your supply was not diminished and all worked out well. This would not be the case for many mums and babies . Milk production simply doesn't work the way described, and although some mums and babies obviously can manage feeding this way, lots cannot."

Worth repeating the point made earlier as you don't seem to get it yet.

GF's advice is NOT to space feeds in the early days, but to not let too long go between feeds so that a baby is having a feed AT LEAST every 3 hours to ensure BFing is established.

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