To want our new flat to ourselves for a while?

[Staceisace]

My DP and I are moving into a new place in a fortnight or so. We've already lived together for over a year but we've just graduated from university and everything's a bit up in the air for us right now as we need to make some decisions about our careers and future (aiming to get full time jobs, save money, get married, buy flat/house...fingers crossed!)

DP's parents know someone who has a flat in our city and that's where we're moving to. I'm not 100% behind the arrangement but couldn't find anywhere else so it'll have to do. The flat is around the same size as our current place which is a one bed but the new place has two bedrooms and an en suite in one of the bedrooms. Overall floorspace is about the same and storage is at a minimum in the new place so most of our big items (suitcases, cat carrier, general crap to be hidden away) will probably end up in the spare room/study.

Initially DP's parents offered to help us move with their van. Now they've decided not to bring their van down but rather their small car which isn't exactly helpful and I don't understand why they've decided to do this - they bring their van down here all the time! A friend with a larger car has already offered their help.

DP's mum is acting like a bit of a go-between regarding the flat and has now also told us it'll be up to us to clean the flat since the old tenants left (not the landlord as expected ...even though the landlord says she is going to). I kind of wish she would leave things alone - DP contacts landlord and it's much easier that way as they both know each other but still want a professional-ish relationship whereas DP's mum just wants to make her friend's life easier. So now we have less help to move and a load of extra cleaning to do. I could handle that but the real kicker is...

DP's parents have earmarked the gloriously tiny spare bedroom as theirs and have set out a series of dates over the coming summer when they plan to stay. They're also delighted that the flat comes with a parking space (we don't have a car). I was okay with them staying as a thank you for helping us move but now I'm a bit :/ about it. We're spending the summer looking for/starting new full time jobs and I probably won't have the time to have the flat ready for them and to entertain them whilst they're here. They're not overly demanding but they always have to have everything 'just so' and I don't think we're capable of providing that right now. The flat is so small we'd be tripping over them and I'm worried about other things like them letting the cat out etc. I'd have preferred it if we could have settled in and then invited them down for a weekend or something when we felt ready to have guests, you know? We were even thinking of inviting them and DP's sister for Christmas because we can't leave the cat but it'd be nice to spend the day with family. We figured that the whole 'being a bit cosy' in the small flat wouldn't be such an issue during the festive period (besides, the Christmas tree would be one less piece of junk in the spare room!)

I'm so used to my parents being really hands off that it's a little overbearing for me. My DP finds it a bit too much as well right now - it's getting to the point where they're calling every day about this flipping flat! Before now they'd phone every Sunday usually and visit maybe once every two or three months just for the day.

I'm being an idiot, aren't I?

Even if they were subsidizing the op (which they were not) they should still respect their space as adults. Money doesn't buy the right to take away another persons space.

"So personally, I think friends and family tend, in normal circumstances, to help each other out."

Yes, and in normal circumstances they ask before using somebody else's home as their own.

And also, parents are usually far more understanding of the need for young adults to have their own space.

My parents have keys to my house. They are welcome to come and go as they please.

But when I was younger and living in rented and shared accommodation they were far more circumspect about spending time in my home because they were respectful of boundaries they (incorrectly, as it happened) thought I might have.

They were also keenly aware that where I lived was not just my home. Now-DH had a separate right to have his space respected.

They paid my way through college. Still managed to respect me as an independent adult.

Funnily enough, I'm pretty sure that was what they wanted all along.

Im starting to think your opinion is clouded by your own issues. So who has taken the piss out of you or not returned a favour?

Lol, no one Poo. I guess the people I am close to are more chilled and giving of themselves...?

The parents are not being controlling at all, they are assuming that they have a close relationship with their son, and that he wants them to visit. Being generous, helpful people themselves they probably don't understand why on earth anyone would want their parents/sis to stay in a hotel, when they have a perfectly good spare room and extra bathroom!

I think there's a few issues going on here.

Firstly OP needs to ask her partner to ask his mother to back off with regards to arrangements with the landlord. That's a contract / agreement between the OP, her partner and the landlord and no one else should be involved. This is assuming that her partner's parents are not contributing to a deposit or rent ie are not involved in this financial arrangement already.

As for the parents wanting to come and stay I think that's fair enough. My PIL "invite themselves" to stay or to look at it another way ask to stay at certain times of their choice. I would NEVER expect them to stay in a hotel. My family live in the same city so this is not issue for my partner but I would unreservedly welcome my in laws including sister in law at any time. Surely that's what you do for your partner's family?

They don't want to move in - just stay overnight with their son and his girlfriend both of whom they go out of their way to help with practical and financial support.

So yes - about them staying for a few nights over the summer YADBU.

I'm surprised by some of the responses to this thread.

OP, I have had the same battle with my parents over the coming to stay issue. My mother used to announce they were coming to stay, not ask. They once turned up for a FIVE day stay they had not told me about beforehand. My mother was really difficult about it, even though she won't have any one of us to stay without about 3 weeks notice and an ETA accurate to within 5 minutes.

In the end, I really put my foot down. I had to speak to my father about it because my mother would not listen (she makes all the arrangements, and it hadn't occurred to him these did not involve actually communicating with me). I love them, they are fabulous parents who have done everything for me and I miss them when I don't see them regularly. But no one comes to stay without even telling me, especially now I have a DH and two children to take into consideration.

9 times out of 10 it is convenient, but that doesn't mean they don't have to ask me. It is about having respect for me as an autonomous adult-I am allowed to refuse to have them to stay, for any number of reasons and I expect them to acknowledge that. So I think your DP should speak to his PIL (gently) and set some ground rules: We'd love to host you but please ask rather than announce and give us a bit of notice.

Meanwhile my mother's bad habits are creeping back in so I'm going to have to have the conversation again (no, telling other people when EC is having you for Xmas or dinner doesn't count, you have actually to speak to EC...and repeat to fade...)

Firstly as you generally get on, I think you really need to get this sorted so your relationship with the 'IL's' doesn't go downhill fast.

I would probably make some excuses about the first date or two they have lined up as to why they can't stay - big up the fact that you may still be in chaos and would be happy to have them when you are sorted, don't want to have to invade the spare room to get stuff when they're in there etc.

If you & your DP are paying for the flat, then I wonder if it would be an idea to have a quiet, very informal word with the landlord/lady along the lines of "Hasn't mum/MIL been great hooking us up, now we're sorted though we'd really like to keep the relationship as professional as possible - good idea don't you think?" which will hopefully get the message across without sounding too harsh.

Does your DP have any other siblings apart from his sister, or another relative that could have a word if necessary?

I was having huge issues with my MIL last year re interfering in stuff we were doing to the house (like your DP she has helped us out financially so there was an element of being 'beholden'). I stayed with BIL and his wife one weekend and ended up a sobbing, drunken heap telling them all about it. He has always been the one most likely to stand up to their mum, and whilst I will probably never know for sure if he had words with her, she has been much more respectful of me since and will even back me on things over DH sometimes, so it might be worth considering if there is someone who can step in.

Eldrich. Why do you think she does that? I am wondering if it is anything to do with not getting that you are now an adult and need to be treated as one.

Oh, good question. It seems to be equal parts blind spot, stubbornness and a sort of need to feel so close and connected that she can just do it. Boundaries are a bit of a problem generally. Some of it is just practical, so she can't be doing with telling everyone, she just rings the child she wants to speak to and assumes we will all sort it out, but that leaves me finding out from the sibling on another continent with a major time difference that my parents are coming tonight.

Also, I'm the least stroppy with her so she is least careful where my convenience is concerned, and the most detached (the two are connected) so she is also a bit unsure. I think sometimes she wants to present a fait accompli so I won't say no, even though I almost never do say no.

I did point out at Xmas she could just send everyone an email about arrangements, and if we all used 'Reply All' we could all have a conversation with everyone in the loop. She did it, with a rather bad grace, and it worked well, but she hasn't done it since.

Generous, helpful people who expect to be able to stay also recognise that there might be good reasons (including other generous, helpful guests) why it might not be possible to stay.

So they ask. They don't inform.

There is nothing generous or helpful in thinking you have a right to use someone else's home without checking with them first.

"Doesnt it?? So she hasnt benefitted from living with him while they pay his rent and living expenses?? They havent had a better standard of living, nicer accomodation?? etc etc."

No, it doesn't.

Two young people, with separate finances, lived together during college.

The parents supported only their son.

You might as well argue that they "subsidised" any other flatmates he might have had during his college years.

Their choice to pay for their son's accommodation might have had indirect advantages to other people he chose to live with, but that creates absolutely no obligation on those people, and certainly no expectation that the parents have unfettered access to the shared flat in question, never mind all future properties they might go on to share.

But there are no other generous helpful guests staying. Just an ungenerous, unhelpful dil and her precious cat. Who is happy to lean on pil to get a flat. The 'give' part of the 'give and take' in human relations seems to have escaped her (and many others on this thread, it seems).

I am at the thought of DP's DM making plans with the landlord - that is overstepping the mark, assuming that the tenancy agreement is yours OP and not with the ILs.

Just tell them (nicely, but firmly) that it's not on, and that you will speak to your own landlord in future.

Regarding coming to stay - what's wrong with telling them that you're really pleased they want to stay with you, but that you want them to ask you in advance?

"and many others on this thread, it seems"
Well, that's a bit of a clue right there then?

I can imagine the conversation between dm and her friend going something like this

DM "Thanks so much for renting the flat to son and gf, they really appreciate it. Btw, gf was asking when the cleaners would have the place ready"

Friend "Glad to help. I usually get it cleaned when we charge xx rent, but since it is at a discount, I hadn't been planning to get a cleaner in..."

DM "Don't worry. Son and gf will be happy to do it themselves. So glad that they could find a place without a deposit/ reference checks/ lower rent "

"and many others on this thread, it seems"
Well, that's a bit of a clue right there then?

What is the clue? That there are a lot of selfish people in the world? I knew that before reading this thread

It isn't selfish to want to be consulted, like an adult.

The clue is that if you have a minority opinion - and I think you'd agree that you have on this thread - then maybe it's OK for the OP to feel that she is not being unreasonable, as many people are agreeing that they would feel the same as she does.

Flatbread, 'there is no free lunch. If you get something, there is a cost attached.'

For all your nasty words about 'ungenerous, unhelpful' 'selfish people' and the OP's 'precious cat' , I think the above is one of the most unpleasant and cynical things on this thread.

Sometimes, between parents and children, there IS a free lunch. One poster says Personally I support my children on the basis that they are my children and I want to, I am not keeping score so they can pay me back in kind.

Another said for other people they give just to be nice. Especially to their own children.

I find the attitude of expecting things back to be more selfish than these expressed views. And, I feel like I've been saying this all day, but here goes again: the OP is not on about not wanting her DP's parents to stay per se. She just doesn't appreciate them trying to dictate when they will come rather than asking.

You might as well argue that they "subsidised" any other flatmates he might have had during his college years.

Thats right I would argue that, only I would imagine that any other student, living in a 2 bed ensuite apartment, or indeed 1 room, the size of a 2 bedroomed en suite apartment, would realise how lucky they were and be appreciative of the fact that while others are house sharing, living in small rooms, they got to stay somewhere lovely.

I wonder, as it was 1 room, how the rent was split. And the bills. And the food bills. And the going out bills.

The PIL havent asked for unfettered access to the flat, they have suggested staying there, using OPs own words "once or twice". I very much doubt they even imagine an issue with this. I expect they imagine the OP and her BF would welcome them and honestly, I cant see why they dont.

The OP makes it clear her own mother and family and friends and indeed cat, take precedence over DPs parents.

They have concert tickets, those dates are fixed, I would imagine they thought the OP and her BF would welcome them and want to spend time with them.

The message I get is loud and clear, "thanks mum and dad for paying for me, supporting me and being really generous, now I can help you out every now and then, fuck off".

I wouldnt dream of expecting my mother to stay in a hotel or drive 2.5 hours after a concert, or her having to "politely" ask, and neither would DH. I would assume she was staying with me, ditto to other family and friends. Thats because we come from a family who help each other out.

Clearly, given the level of financial support that has been provided, the OPs BF comes from the same sort of family.

The OP doesn't say other people take precedence. She just says she doesn't like her DP's parents announcing, rather than asking, when they will be staying (as opposed to her family, who she says would always ask rather than inviting themselves).

As for 'subsidising' other flatmates, good grief ... My parents paid a good portion of my housing bills when I was a student, and I always shared with others, so I guess that means they subsidised them all. I obviously need to get in touch with them all now and make sure that they know 'how lucky they were' and how much gratitude they owe my parents.

It's a vexed question though; many of my flatmates over the years were also partially or fully supported by their parents/families, so presumably I owe their families something too ... I think we'll need accounting software and a spreadsheet to work out accurately exactly how much everyone owes each other.

Lady, the no free lunch is not necessarily about the expectations of the giver. It is about the attitude of the taker. Someone who takes without any thought about giving back something is very ungracious and selfish, in my book.

First off: the flat IS small - there aren't two bathrooms - there's one room with a bath, toilet and sink and another shower room ensuite which is basically a shower, toilet and sink with no room to move. All of the rooms are very small and when I say the spare room can fit a double bed I mean it fits in but it takes up almost all of the floor space. So much so that we're not sure we'll be able to get a computer chair at the desk. It's difficult to explain - we currently live in a tenement flat with large rooms in a nicer area but we're moving somewhere smaller with more rooms that is more central because the landlord is a family friend and doesn't want to rent to strangers. The rent is the same as we are paying right now so we're not gaining or losing all that much - yes, we cut out transport costs to the city centre but we are also moving away from friends and an area we like.

Secondly: we live in Glasgow, not London and are paying the rent with savings until we find jobs. I am definitely not rich!

Thirdly: DP has been saying for the past two years that he doesn't want the allowance/rent payments from his family because his course is longer than his sister's and because he already had money saved from working during previous summers that would cover his rent/expenses for the year but his parents insisted that they did not want him getting into debt (although he couldn't take a student loan anyway due to their income) so continued giving him the money. He does feel guilty about it but what can he do?! They wanted to give him a leg up in life and we've never been ungrateful - we just want to live in our own home without feeling constantly under threat of them wanting to stay all of the time. It'd be annoying if my family did it too.