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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to be amazed at people going to church

615 replies

Hullygully · 20/06/2012 15:19

I really didn't think anyone still did the whole church on Sunday thing (this is not meant rudely, am just genuinely amazed).

Why do you go?

Don't you go out dancing and drinking on Sat and have a terrible hangover?

Or don't you want to have a lie-in with the papers?

Do you have roast dinner after?

Where do you live?

OP posts:
springydaffs · 25/06/2012 19:49

I don't know why he did it the way he did it (or whatever way he did it) but I am convinced that he is good, and that whatever way he did it was for a good reason. That's enough for me, though I'm sure it isn't enough for everybody.

We are born into an extraordinarily shit deal, that's obvious. Though saying that, and I know I keep banging on about it: in the west we don't necessarily know exactly how shit it is. We may know through knowledge but not necessarily through experience. Hugely generalising here because we in the west certainly know about eg emotional/mental/relational anguish which is certainly one form of agony.

It baffles me that Snorbs etc are saying that God does nothing about it, when he went to such extraordinary lengths to give us the power, on an ongoing basis, to get out of the agonising deal we were born in. he has given it precisely because of how terrible it is here. It is obvious to anyone that what we are faced with here can be mercilessly vicious. I want to get out of that, and I want other people to get out of that, as much as possible. God wants us to get out of it too, so he's given us the means. HOw can you say he's done, and does, nothing?

My (adult) kids are seriously up the spout at the moment and there is nothing like the pain of that as a mother. I've only got the few to break my heart, God's got erm the lot. The pain of that, what happens to his children, must be... I can't imagine it, when my pain is so huge over a handful of people. I want my kids to see how to get out of the hideous mess they're in (it's so obvious!) but there is absolutely nothing I can do about it, nothing at all. Perhaps I could kidnap them and chain them up, forcing them to stop what they're doing. But the only thing I can do is be here, loving them. They know I love them - I laid the groundwork for that, even if they weren't listening - and I pray that one day they will come to their senses. In the meantime I have to watch what they do, and what people do to them, and what they do to other people - and on it rolls. It is agony, but I still can't step in. It may be small love, up to God's love, but it's all love, the same quality, the same perameters.

Thy will be done - for my kids and for the hideous suffering around the globe. I know that my faith - in his goodness, mercy and power - produces results. I have seen God's awesome grace, goodness and power in too many situations to not be convinced of it. I am not unusual - would that as many people as possible believed in God's goodness to pull it into situations: we'd have the globe covered. he says we are his body and he wants willing volunteers to do his work - to relieve suffering, to put right wrongs. You don't even have to believe in or follow him, he'll use anyone; as you would if your kids were in trouble. It is what he wants - he over and over expresses that. So do something instead of standing back and complaining that he's shit. Personally, I want as much power as possible in any given hideous situation. Luckily, he does too, and provides it. great team.

But, fair enough, if you think he's a capricious, vicious bastard, tell him you think he's a capricious, vicious bastard. it's relationship he wants and, if you're up to here with what a vile, senseless bastard you think he is, then tell him. No point being weird about it, may as well be real. It is the times I have been the most angry with God (and there have been many) that have been like rocket fuel to my relationship with him. I haven't quite worked that out but maybe it's because I'm being honest instead of that holy shit.

Great posts btw.

springydaffs · 25/06/2012 19:49

oh gosh sorry that was so rambly and long! Shock

stillawake · 25/06/2012 20:20

hackmum: The doctrine that those who died without the opportunity to learn of Christ or be baptized can live with God eternally is one that is actually very central in my religion. We believe that there are opportunities in the life after this one. At the same time, we also believe that who we become here is who we will be there, and if we allow ourselves to be distracted by money, power, fame, or addiction here, we will still have to overcome that there.

madhairday · 25/06/2012 20:25

I love your honesty and courage to say it how you do, Springy :)

I hope and pray your kids come through this.

GrimmaTheNome · 25/06/2012 20:31

We are born into an extraordinarily shit deal, that's obvious

Now here's a thing. As societies evolve to be less shit, religiousity seems to wane. People in countries with good state systems of health, welfare, education and justice maybe have less need of a God, either to hope in or to rage at.

I don't think God is a capricious, vicious bastard because I don't think he exists. That seems a much simpler solution to 'the problem of suffering' than the convolutions theists have to deal with. The Buddha engaged with the problem of suffering long before Christ without invoking a god, by looking at its causes and how to reduce them. If you've got to have a religion, that seems a more productive way to go.

springydaffs · 25/06/2012 20:33

if we allow ourselves to be distracted by money, power, fame, or addiction here, we will still have to overcome that there.

that is a depressing thought.

thanks madhair

madhairday · 25/06/2012 20:40

Maybe we get too comfortable and complacent Grimma in such societies and find it easier to ignore spirituality. Not sure I've seen too many societies 'evolving to be less shit' though if you look not too far under the surface, even of the most 'civilised' societies. There is shit close everywhere, which is one of the reasons God makes more sense to me - that there surely must be some kind of justice for all the ugly violence and intense suffering throughout the world. To believe there is nothing, and therefore to believe there could be nothing more for those who have suffered, no resolution for those murdered in the Holocaust, no justice for the mum who lost her children in the Rwanda atrocities, no hope for the girls trafficked across continents and sold for sex, nothing ever to resolve for the orphans and the widows and the sick and the depressed and the abused. My God gives hope for all those and I believe with all my heart one day there will be the ultimate form of wonderful and loving justice. And that even more than that, that there can be amazing freedom now, for anyone who wants it.

GrimmaTheNome · 25/06/2012 22:04

Societies don't get better (and remain so)through complacency. They get better through people determining that they shall be so.

springydaffs · 25/06/2012 22:40

what, better?

GrimmaTheNome · 25/06/2012 22:47

Yes, better. Anyone think British society isn't better than 100, 200, 300 years ago? People don't get hung for stealing food. Or burned for being heretics or 'witches'. We can all vote. We don't have, or profit from, slavery. All our children are educated. We all get healthcare our forebears couldn't have dreamed of. Homosexuals aren't hounded. These things didn't happen by complacency, or by waiting for God to sort it out. They happen because of people seeing things that need doing and doing them. Obviously, there's always more to be done, here and even more elsewhere.

springydaffs · 25/06/2012 22:50

That was God sorting it out, through people. like duh (that's how he does it)

Ode2Joy · 25/06/2012 23:13

that's right Springy... and most of the major reformers were followers of Jesus :o
...and minor reformers. not to say that Christianity has a monopoly on goodness of course (true Christianity that is, not the horrors that have been done/are done in its name). But the welfare system began because of the amazing work of the salvation army, churches began schools (most if not all were private and not free before), barnados, hospitals and medical outposts the world over, abolition of slavery to name but a few, oh... and the law as we have it today of course :)

GrimmaTheNome · 25/06/2012 23:34

That was God sorting it out, through people

I'm sure you believe that. We can be 100% sure of the involvement of the people - no proof whatever that there was actually a god behind it all. In times when pretty much everyone was religious, and the institutions that existed were dominated by it (try getting a uni place then if you weren't CofE. Well assuming you were a man too of course) then all the good as well as the bad would come from religious people. There were churchmen on both sides of the abolition debate, for instance. Latterly - the grip of religion wanes - there's religious and irreligious people sorting it out.

Ode2Joy · 25/06/2012 23:58

The examples I cited and I could be more precise except it's v late, were, as I emphasised, 'followers of Jesus' - not pew fodder :o Their faith was the thing that inspired them to start and continue with the works they did, not just seeing the need. One will find, as one example, that the churchmen on the other side of the abolition debate to William Wilberforce, may well have been religious - but that is as in going through the motions, not having a living, active faith in God or relationship with him.
Of course nominal Christians and agnostic/atheists/believers of other religions have also contributed to society and continue to do so, but if we look in detail at the heritage of this country as a direct result of followers of Jesus, we'll see a major impact for good, unequalled by any other branch of society :) It's not a competition but I guess I get a wee bit defensive when followers of Jesus get lumped in with the band 'religious' as we all know standing in the garage doesn't make you a car either :)

springydaffs · 26/06/2012 07:16

He'll use anybody who shows willing, as you would if your kids were in trouble. he just wants the job done.

stillawake · 26/06/2012 07:22

springy, I also really like your post (the long one at 19:49).

CrunchyFrog · 26/06/2012 07:47

Oh, I love the "but the aren't REAL Christians" defence.

What's your opinion on Paisley? He has for sure and bf dammed accepted Jesus Christ as his saviour &c. Not sure he's done a lot (or any) good.

Isn't it funny how, in times when one was at best unelectable and at worst in danger of losing one's life unless one conformed to a religion, most people did? What a co-incidence.

GrimmaTheNome · 26/06/2012 08:24

Ode - I know many good Christians; Christianity at its best can help inspire people - by following (some) of Jesus's teachings. Who isn't better for taking on board the Good Samaritan? I don't need any belief in God to follow that one though, and its not a principle which is unique to Christianity.

Sometimes I think religion is like a magnifying glass... it can help good people be better, not least by providing a framework for their positive activity, but it also unfortunately can provide a mechanism to make bad people worse and abet their wrongdoings.

FairPhyllis · 26/06/2012 09:54

I'm just picking up on a post from Grimma to address some important stuff that has been so far overlooked.

To be fair, much of Christendom, while tending to believe the miracles of the NT take much of the OT as myth. The deeper problem lies in the 'truths' these myths are supposed to illustrate - the belief in original sin, the notion that anyone else's sacrifice can earn forgiveness from that sin (which is can lead to an abrogation of personal responsibility)

OK, so the doctrine of original sin is not strictly based on the account in Genesis. This seems to be a fairly common misconception among many Christians (if you think about it, we share Genesis with Judaism and there is no concept of original sin in Judaism). Original sin as a concept developed in the Western part of the church several centuries after Christ as a response to aspects of Gnosticism, and relies primarily on several passages in St Paul for its biblical justification. It's important to note that although Protestantism has absorbed the concept of original sin wholesale from Western Catholicism, the Eastern church has never accepted the Western formulation - in Eastern traditions we suffer the consequences of Adam's sin (i.e. we are not immortal anymore, and we aren't naturally, automatically in a relationship with God) but we don't have personal responsibility or guilt for it. So original sin is not actually that basic a doctrine, although most Western Christians will present it to you as one, because it's something that RCism and Protestantism happen to agree on (Anglicans are typically woolly on this now ... Grin I say that as an Anglican).

How do I personally make sense of it all? Well, I think it's pretty clear that Genesis is meant to be read as a narrative myth. I don't believe that there was an "Adam." I believe in evolution. I see it more as a story about what humans ought to be like/have the potential to be like and what the reality is - that we have selfish, human-centred world views rather than God-centred ones. I think of the story as a way of acknowledging and expressing the fact we see around us that we aren't automatically in a relationship with God. So I am closer to the Eastern view - I don't believe in original sin as something we are personally guilty of and need to be redeemed from and I think our natural state without Christ is that of separation from God - but I don't see the Genesis story as historical/factual.

One thing I am agnostic on is why it is that we are separated from God to begin with. It may be to do with free will - that we have to be free to reject God.

Another epic post on the doctrine of penal substitutionary atonement and the problem of evil coming up when I have had some sleep!

JugglingWithTangentialOranges · 26/06/2012 10:29

Wow, that sounds like quite a lot to tackle Phyllis - no wonder you'll need a rest first ! Thanks for explaining about "original sin" - you're right having grown up in the CofE I'd never heard a proper explanation before (or it may have washed over me) - perhaps they're heading towards more of an understanding similar to yours and the Eastern church ? I'd only ever really heard the idea that we all fall short ( of an impossibly high bar ? Smile )

As I mentioned I'm now with the Quakers who spend less time thinking about sin and more on what we might do to enable "thy will be done, on Earth as it is in heaven"

DRT · 26/06/2012 11:21

Well Hully, the first thing to note is that people are still up for theological debate so whilst there are plenty of churches still stuck in Victorian England there are plenty alive and kicking with contemporary worship and great kids/youth work that takes folk away from their small lives and addresses the big picture. Many churches may be frightening places for those not ready for a faith but there are plenty of testing grounds called Alpha courses where you can find out, if you have an open mind, what motivates Christians and what you think about it all with no strings attached. I've been to church all my life, almost all my teenagers still go by choice, we lie in on Saturdays and yes we sit down to a British Sunday roast together - love it, best day of the week :-)

Hullygully · 26/06/2012 11:43
OP posts:
madhairday · 26/06/2012 12:29

Grimma, back to your post about societies getting better. Yes, we have a much better deal than a hundred, 200 yrs ago etc (I'd have not stood a chance of living past infancy, always find that a weird thought). As Ode2Joy says much of this reform started with committed Christians fighting for justice. However, my take on it is that as we are all made in God's image, we all have good in us, we all have the capacity for doing good and for making things better. Thus, in some senses, who made the changes, christian or atheist, Jew or Muslim, is neither here nor there, because we all reflect God's image and the good that humans do comes out of the good that God is. So yep - God did it through us, whether 'in his name' or not :)

Good post on original sin FairPhyllis. I always thought it was an Augustine-inspired doctrine

Ode2Joy · 26/06/2012 13:37

I believe that the bible is inspired by God and an accurate record of world history Shock :o You can research it more at alpha (good post DRT) and answersingenesis or wherever else you'd like to start, if you were really interested. IMO if one quibbles at chapter one page one then the rest can't be trusted either.

Also the way i see it is if one is going to believe in a supernatural God (out of our dimension) then it surely goes to say he can do anything he likes - eg make something out of nothing (which is incidentally what evolutionists believe too, just not the god bit. IMO the more one researches evolution the more faith it takes to believe that theory, but nuff said here lol).

It was interesting to see some phrases being used by diff people and them having diff meanings. Eg original sin, atonement, grace etc are used by all of Christendom but don't always mean the same thing. Again, I make a decision to believe what the bible says about it, not my own opinions or even the establishment. That's not to say the latter two are always incorrect, but everything has to be held up to the light of scripture.

I know some of u may be having convulsions at what I say lol! Great to mix it up a bit :o

Finally, I became a follower of Jesus and he changed my heart, it's hard to describe the change in heart one has when one receives Him in - its so much more than just subscribing to a set of beliefs. Later on I did lots of research into the big questions (how do u know bible is true, evolution, who/what is God) etc which only confirmed what was going on in my heart already anyway.

I've had tons of experiences where God had proved to me he is real n cares for me etc, such as answers to prayer by the hundreds - boy, I would have so much fun sharing them all! (as someone oncel said, 'when I pray coincidences happen, when I dont, they don't') but I don't want to dominate hullygully's topic. To get back to the original question, this is why I go to church - to be encouraged by others who are also on this journey. I wish there was a fuller representation by the media of churches - almost all the ones I see on tv are of the religious/rules/regulations/traditions type and are so different to what Jesus did.

It's been a great thread, and for me, I hope, if u aren't already, u become a searcher for truth, cos Jesus promises 'if u seek u will find' :) byeeee x

GrimmaTheNome · 26/06/2012 13:39

Phyllis's take on original sin (or the lack thereof) is much more reasonable that what one often hears.

Mad - well fairly obviously I believe that God(s) have been made in man's image, hence the mix of good and bad in deities.

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