Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to be amazed at people going to church

615 replies

Hullygully · 20/06/2012 15:19

I really didn't think anyone still did the whole church on Sunday thing (this is not meant rudely, am just genuinely amazed).

Why do you go?

Don't you go out dancing and drinking on Sat and have a terrible hangover?

Or don't you want to have a lie-in with the papers?

Do you have roast dinner after?

Where do you live?

OP posts:
Snorbs · 24/06/2012 21:39

biblical teaching does not always apply to those who live in the remote rainforest, or otherwise denied all knowledge of Jesus. As Christians, we want to make sure that everyone hears about Jesus which is why we believe in evangelism.

Apologies but that seems a bit of a non sequitur to me. On the one hand, if you live somewhere that has never heard of Jesus then you can achieve salvation just by living a more-or-less good life.

But if you have heard of Jesus, then you both need to live a more-or-less good life plus do the whole accepting Jesus into your heart thing.

Therefore it seems you'd have a better chance of achieving salvation by not having heard of Jesus at all. Evangelism is, if anything, reducing people's chances of salvation by increasing the number of hoops you have to jump through.

JugglingWithTangentialOranges · 24/06/2012 21:45

I have to agree with your logic there, Snorbs Smile

Seems christians aren't too certain of the first part of this, but are trying to be reasonable/ generous (which has to be good ?!)

ClaireBunting · 24/06/2012 21:53

We don't know what plans God has for those who have never heard of Jesus.

We have heard of Jesus and know what is expected of us.

springydaffs · 24/06/2012 22:22

Getting into heaven (eternal life) is not the only reason we want people to know about Jesus, we also want them to know about God's power to release/heal/deliver etc

re Isaiah 61 (which is about Jesus):

The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is on me,
because the Lord has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to bind up the broken-hearted,
to proclaim freedom for the captives
and release from darkness for the prisoners,
2 to proclaim the year of the Lord?s favour
and the day of vengeance of our God,
to comfort all who mourn,
3 and provide for those who grieve in Zion ?
to bestow on them a crown of beauty
instead of ashes,
the oil of joy
instead of mourning,
and a garment of praise
instead of a spirit of despair.
They will be called oaks of righteousness,
a planting of the Lord
for the display of his splendour.

4 They will rebuild the ancient ruins
and restore the places long devastated;
they will renew the ruined cities
that have been devastated for generations.
5 Strangers will shepherd your flocks;
foreigners will work your fields and vineyards.
6 And you will be called priests of the Lord,
you will be named ministers of our God.
You will feed on the wealth of nations,
and in their riches you will boast.

7 Instead of your shame
you will receive a double portion,
and instead of disgrace
you will rejoice in your inheritance.
And so you will inherit a double portion in your land,
and everlasting joy will be yours.

8 ?For I, the Lord, love justice;
I hate robbery and wrongdoing.

If your kids were suffering and you'd paid the price for them to be released from that suffering, you'd want them to know about it.

JugglingWithTangentialOranges · 24/06/2012 22:35

Nice bit of Isaiah SpringDaffs - but I don't really get the analogy in your last line - it doesn't really remind me of any human situation. My DN was ill, but fortunately the treatment at Great Ormond Street was free - and she is now well.
For which we are all very thankful.

Hullygully · 24/06/2012 22:41
OP posts:
Snorbs · 24/06/2012 22:46

If my kids were suffering as a direct result of choices I had made, I think I'd take a much more proactive role in helping them. I certainly wouldn't insist on yet more hoops for them to jump through to prove that they're worthy of my help.

But that's just me. I can only imagine that my desire to take responsibility for my own actions would mean I'd make a rubbish god.

Guava · 24/06/2012 22:51

"it's often like a glorified, sprawling PTA - people are vile to you if you don't do it Their Way."

Depends on the church and the people Springy. There are many which can't get enough people (or funds) to do all that needs doing.

JugglingWithTangentialOranges · 24/06/2012 22:54

Snorbs Grin

Quite

This is roundabout where I first started having problems with the christianity I grew up with.

Retaining a fondness for some of it - and being curious to see what I could find to add to it - I'm now a Quaker Smile

ClaireBunting · 24/06/2012 22:54

I don't recognise the church that springy describes.

I am at a largish church (400+ on the ER), and we never turn down any help at all. We are very pleased when new people step forward.

biddysmama · 24/06/2012 22:58

Why do you go?

because i want to, ive been brought up going to church

Don't you go out dancing and drinking on Sat and have a terrible hangover?

i have young children and no childcare

Or don't you want to have a lie-in with the papers?

i get up between 6-7am every day

Do you have roast dinner after?

we have our roast at 5ish

Where do you live?

lancashire

JugglingWithTangentialOranges · 24/06/2012 23:12

Since biddy has brought us back to the OP's questions I realise I haven't addressed those yet (despite hanging around thread for a while), so here goes ...

Why do you go (to Quaker Meeting House) ?

For the community of people I've become fond of, and for the moments of inspiration, the peace, and space to think. Beautiful garden too & nice tea and cake Smile

Dancing/ drinking etc on Saturday night ?

I like a good ceilidth/ bit of world music, and a nice bottle of red or chilled cider, but it's been a while since I associated either with Saturday nights !

Lie in/ papers

I call 9ish a good lie-in these days. Have never bothered much with un-wieldy papers - prefer to catch up with stuff on Newsnight or Any Questions or a good documentary - or indeed on here Smile

Roast dinner afterwards ?

We're veggie and not super organised - We manage a nice nut roast with all the trimmings on Christmas day Smile

Where do you live ?

Cambridgeshire

SoleSource · 24/06/2012 23:13

I think the OP actually does go to church.

JugglingWithTangentialOranges · 24/06/2012 23:16

What makes you say/ think that SS ?

SoleSource · 24/06/2012 23:20

Possibly wanting to see how many other Mumsnetters do go to church. Might give a good idea.

tunnocksteacakes · 24/06/2012 23:25
  1. Why do I go? I want to learn more about God and find the preaching stimulating. I also like the fellowship.
  1. I would love to go out dancing but kids and no childcare means that is not an option.
  1. I would like a lie in but the kids mean it rarely happens.
  1. I'd love a roast dinner but am never organised enough. We sometimes have a roast at tea time.
  1. Scotland
springydaffs · 24/06/2012 23:34

If my kids were suffering as a direct result of choices I had made , I think I'd take a much more proactive role in helping them

eh?? what do you mean snorbs?

I certainly wouldn't insist on yet more hoops for them to jump through to prove that they're worthy of my help.

hoops? what hoops? there's only one: Jesus. that's it, there aren't any more. You can't prove you're worthy (you're not, but he freely gives anyway).

re Isaiah - I should have thought it is a great passage for anyone who is caught in a prison of some kind eg drugs, shit relationship/s, addictions, shitty job, negative equity etc etc (we're talking the west here). Or people who mourns lost opportunities, lost life because of abuse; or time because of poor choices etc etc. That God hates the injustices that go on across the globe, even our own tiny corner in the west and wants to put the record straight and stick up for victims of injustice of some kind etc etc. Maybe it is God's blessing that we live in a country that has the medical expertise available on tap, without having to pay for it. Rebuild ancient ruins re lives that have been wrecked due to any number of reasons etc etc. I didn't mean to paste the entire passage but PC had a fit and, well, it's a good news passage I think - 'the oil of joy for mourning', which is a solace in suffering Smile

I'm very glad to hear yous^^ know churches that aren't like the ones I describe. I'd love to find one like it and realise I've come up against some of the worst.

I'm 'talking' far too much though and even getting on my own nerves tbf.

JugglingWithTangentialOranges · 24/06/2012 23:44

I'm glad the whole Isaiah passage got posted - I like it a lot Smile

Snorbs · 25/06/2012 09:45

springydaffs, what I mean is this: We are, apparantly, not worthy of salvation. We are being held to impossibly high standards and inevitably fail to reach them. We live in a world full of disease, parasites and natural disasters.

Humans didn't create this state of affairs, god did. God created the standards to which we are held even though, as an omniscient being, he must presumably be aware that we cannot possibly meet them. God created the parasitical worms that burrow into the eyes of innocent children. Even if you believe in evolution rather than creation, again, an omniscient deity would know the outcome.

Whether faith alone is enough for salvation depends on whether you regard James 2:20's "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" as worth following or not. If faith in Jesus is the only thing you need to enter heaven then that leads us back to the question over what happens if you live in the Amazonian rain forest and have never heard of Jesus.

God set up the conditions that lead to the situation we find ourselves in today. The Bible makes it clear that we are wretched sinners unworthy of god's salvation. God does not actively help us to get out of this situation without us first having to jump through the hoops of believing a number of things about him on faith alone and/or living a life attempting to meet standards that we are incapable of meeting.

So to put that into terms of me as a father relating to my children: As my children grow up I repeatedly tell them that they're never going to be good enough. I engineer situations in the full knowledge that my children will be harmed, and quite possibly killed, by those situations.

All the time I demand of my children that, despite the appalling way I have treated them, they must love me with all their hearts and trust me implicitly otherwise I'll kick them out of the house.

At no point do I accept any personal responsibility - I do it because I love my kids so much! And, anyway, it's all fine because they have free will and after I kick them out of the house they can return any time they want provided they first accept that I love them and that they love me totally.

In reality, if I behaved like that to my children I suspect I'd get Social Services called on me. And for good reason.

Hmm. "God's Social Worker". That could make a good title for a book...

springydaffs · 25/06/2012 10:40

stunning post snorbs! I wish I had the time to answer it - but maybe someone will come along and butt me out of the way (not a bad thing I think) before I get the chance.

Hold that thought Wink

Mopswerver · 25/06/2012 10:47

Springy I was responding to the previous post by Guava inviting people to come along and make church a better place. I'd love to but there's the thorny problem of having to believe in God!

madhairday · 25/06/2012 12:50

Snorbs you make some really interesting points. I'll bring some of my thinking to it, for what it's worth :)

springydaffs, what I mean is this: We are, apparantly, not worthy of salvation. We are being held to impossibly high standards and inevitably fail to reach them. We live in a world full of disease, parasites and natural disasters.

We're not being held to impossibly high standards, because through Jesus God has provided the means to be where we should be - in relationship with God. It's true we cannot hold up to the standards of holiness, but thank God, we don't have to and are completely free from having to strive towards any such goal. It's one of the many freedoms that comes with accepting what God's done.

Humans didn't create this state of affairs, god did. God created the standards to which we are held even though, as an omniscient being, he must presumably be aware that we cannot possibly meet them. God created the parasitical worms that burrow into the eyes of innocent children. Even if you believe in evolution rather than creation, again, an omniscient deity would know the outcome.

Classic Christian doctrine teaches that when humans decided to go their own way, ie against God, that not only did we fall but the whole of creation fell. There's a haunting passage in Romans which talks about creation groaning and waiting for its restoration. Parasitical worms and disease and natural disasters are the result of the whole of creation becoming skewed, becoming not as it was made to be. I know Satan, or the devil is a laughable image and not often talked about as it sounds nuts to even entertain the possibility of such a creature, but I believe the bible, and I believe there is this source of evil so hugely malevolent and vile that it's too simplistic to say 'it's humankinds fault that creation fell.' I believe the world being skewed and full of suffering is due to more than a man eating an apple Grin - So yes, I believe God knew the outcome, and cries and hurts over it, through it and with all those who suffer as a result, over and over and over again. And sent Jesus to redress the balance.

Whether faith alone is enough for salvation depends on whether you regard James 2:20's "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" as worth following or not. If faith in Jesus is the only thing you need to enter heaven then that leads us back to the question over what happens if you live in the Amazonian rain forest and have never heard of Jesus.

IMO faith should always be accompanied by deeds, and faith that isn't is not the kind of faith Jesus is requesting and modelling himself. If faith is true faith, deeds will be there. If not (as in the case of those who engage in wars, bigotry etc in the name of such) I don't believe it is there.

Interesting aside about the Amazonian thing - I have a friend who visited an obscure place in South America somewhere (hazy on details, I'm shit at remembering facts) and talked to a man who knew Jesus, but had never heard of Christianity. He recounted how he'd been searching for God, and had a dream and Jesus spoke to him. He knew Jesus was who he'd been searching for and came to a living faith which he'd passed on to others. I always think of this when people say 'what about those who have never heard' etc because as I said above, I reckon God has it sorted, I reckon God is just, I don't need to worry. However, your point then about 'what's the point of evangelism in that case' is highly valid and one I've thought a lot on. In the end I believe Jesus told us to tell others, and therefore I'm obeying (Matt 28), and that's enough. And within that I find something freed, something beautiful....I can't explain the whys and wherefores.

God set up the conditions that lead to the situation we find ourselves in today. The Bible makes it clear that we are wretched sinners unworthy of god's salvation. God does not actively help us to get out of this situation without us first having to jump through the hoops of believing a number of things about him on faith alone and/or living a life attempting to meet standards that we are incapable of meeting.

I think God did actively help us to get out of this situation, by sending Jesus to model a life of worship and perfection, to die in our place and conquer death. I reckon it's a pretty awesome way to get right in there with us.

So to put that into terms of me as a father relating to my children: As my children grow up I repeatedly tell them that they're never going to be good enough. I engineer situations in the full knowledge that my children will be harmed, and quite possibly killed, by those situations.

Or, as my children grow up they often rebel against me, perhaps in bigger ways as they get older. I always tell them I love them, whatever, and will always love them. Nothing they can do can ever stop me loving them with my entire being. I repeatedly tell them I delight in them and that they are beautiful. I hurt so much when they get put in positions of harm, of bullying, of danger, and I cry with them when they get hurt. If I can do anything to stop the hurt, I do it. Sometimes they walk right into situations and I cannot intervene. But I'm there for them and they can walk right into my arms at any time.

That is how I experience God.

All the time I demand of my children that, despite the appalling way I have treated them, they must love me with all their hearts and trust me implicitly otherwise I'll kick them out of the house.

I give them the choice to love me with all their hearts and to put their trust in me. They are welcome in my house at any time they ever wish.

At no point do I accept any personal responsibility - I do it because I love my kids so much! And, anyway, it's all fine because they have free will and after I kick them out of the house they can return any time they want provided they first accept that I love them and that they love me totally.

I do love my kids so much, and they do have a choice, and they can return anytime. I stretch out my arms to them even if they don't realise I love them and even if they don't love me.

That's something of where I am with it although I'm sure others will be along putting it much better. :)

Snorbs · 25/06/2012 13:53

If you believe in the fall - either literally as in Genesis, or metaphorically - then that was the result of us being held to impossibly high standards. If we accept that god is omniscient then he knew we would fail. Sure, as a parent sometimes I do have to let my child try and fail at something as it will be a valuable learning experience. But you only for things that have trivial consequences. The fall of humanity was for infinitely high stakes.

I believe God knew the outcome, and cries and hurts over it, through it and with all those who suffer as a result, over and over and over again.

So god set the situation up - creating the world in the way that he did - in the full and clear knowledge of what the outcome would be. He knew that the way he set things up would lead, directly and indirectly, to the hideous suffering of untold billions of people over the millenia as they died wretched, disease-ridden deaths. But it's ok because he's sad about that.

That's like saying "I knew my child would inevitably get badly hurt if I let her ride her brakeless bike down the really steep hill into the barbed wire fence but, y'know, I'm really sad that she lost an eye." Where's the responsibility here?

If I can do anything to stop the hurt, I do it.

Exactly. You and I are parents. If we can do anything to stop our children from getting hurt then we will.

God doesn't. If anything, god was the agent that put the parasites on the earth, that created our world with its unstable plate tectonics and volatile weather, that created the hill, took the brakes off the bike and stood back as we started wobbling down the hill towards the barbed wire fence he strung up. And he does nothing to protect us. He doesn't stop the worms he created from burrowing into the eyes of children, he doesn't stop the tsunamis, he doesn't cure the diseases.

But that's ok because he loves us and he's sad when we get hurt by the barbed wire that he put there in the first place.

Ode2Joy · 25/06/2012 15:16

Hi snorbs, God created humankind with free will - he wanted us to choose to love him

GrimmaTheNome · 25/06/2012 15:33

he put into play a plan redemption - he sent his only son to take the punishment for us instead of him

Its odd, but that sort of thing seemed to make sense to me once. Stand back and look at it. Who says there needs to be 'punishment' in the first place? How does it come about that blood sacrifice atones? These are ideas which wouldn't arise nowadays - they are rooted in their times, when crimes were harshly punished and animal sacrifice was commonplace.

Also of course, the causes of many of our sorrows - disease, parasites, tectonic activity predate humankinds arrival on the earth. So when was this 'perfect world' supposed to have existed?