to be amazed at people going to church

[Hullygully]

I really didn't think anyone still did the whole church on Sunday thing (this is not meant rudely, am just genuinely amazed).

Why do you go?

Don't you go out dancing and drinking on Sat and have a terrible hangover?

Or don't you want to have a lie-in with the papers?

Do you have roast dinner after?

Where do you live?

hackmum, when it comes to people born before Jesus, I think the thinking is that they could be saved by putting their trust in God, as far as they knew about him. (And that it's the same way people are saved now, except that they know more. They know God has a Son, Jesus, who died to pay the penalty for their sins.)

If you're interested, there's more on this in this article by a very good writer and philosopher (fourth paragraph from the end; it's quite long):
www.reasonablefaith.org/how-can-christ-be-the-only-way-to-god

Best wishes. :)

Cheesecakefan: "when it comes to people born before Jesus, I think the thinking is that they could be saved by putting their trust in God, as far as they knew about him."

So what if you were an ancient Roman, who believed in Zeus and the other gods? Or you were Norse, and believed in Thor and all the others? Or you're a modern-day Hindu and you believe in all the Hindu gods?

47to31in7days: "It's "fair" (human definitions do not come into this) because God is acting out of mercy as ALL of us are sinners deserving eternal death- Romans 6 and many others. He has thus no duty to let us into Heaven; but He has provided a way to atone for sins out of love and this requires believing in Him."

We're all sinners, are we? Well, speak for yourself. I'm not a sinner, I'm a perfectly nice person. And in any, case by your logic, God made me, so any sins I've supposedly committed are God's fault.

Incidentally, where does God stand on the question of mentally ill people? Or people with learning disabilities? Or psychopaths? (Psychopaths are incapable of feeling empathy, so how are they supposed to make a judgement between right and wrong?)

People are judged on what they do with what God gives them. If you'd never heard of Christ, but lived the best you knew how, God doesn't hold that against you.

Regarding grace and deeds, you are saved by grace (we are all sinners, and fall short). However, even though your deeds themselves may not save you, your deeds show God that you are worthy his Grace. James 2 makes it clear the importance of works, along the side of faith.

hackmum: It depends on situation, and it's a tough question. The severely disabled and children who die, of course, go to heaven. We don't know why they die so young, or why all of them have the problems they do, but I do believe they were some of our most faithful brothers and sisters. Instead of coming here to be tempted, they were given different (and sometimes overwhelming) challenges to allow for their progress.

As for those incapable of empathy, it's possible that some are born unaccountable to God as well, but it's also possible that they were born that way because they'd already burned away their conscience before they were born. I make no judgement either way because we're judged on a individual basis, and every situation is different. One may be unaccountable, and another may have the full weight of God's condemnation. We just don't know.

When we say we are all sinners, we are saying we all occasionally do things we know we shouldn't. It's a reminder to us to remember and improve on our own weaknesses instead of judging someone else for theirs.

I used to go,raised a catholic,married a catholic etc. Then I divorced said catholic and the CCD teacher told my 6,8 and 9 year old Dcs I was an adulterer
and Id go to hell . I recovered from catholicism then and havent set foot in a church since

stillawake: "When we say we are all sinners, we are saying we all occasionally do things we know we shouldn't."

But is that true? People who do very bad things are very good at finding justification for it. Look at Blair going to war in Iraq, for example. Or white settlers who wiped out thousands of aboriginals in different countries in the name of their superior Christian culture. Or, to take an example closer to home, look at all the people on a current Mumsnet thread justifying tax avoidance. I think tax avoidance is morally wrong; lots of people (some of them, I would guess, Christians) think it's fine. Almost no-one says "I did a bad thing and I knew it was bad."

"People are judged on what they do with what God gives them. If you'd never heard of Christ, but lived the best you knew how, God doesn't hold that against you."

This is the point at which the whole thing falls apart for me. How do you know? Seriously, how do you know God doesn't hold that against you? Why are you, one person on a planet of seven billion, so confident that you know the mind of God? Or do you just happen to think, like so many, that God thinks exactly the same way about stuff that you do?

as it happens, my ex was a sociopath and he was a christian proper. yy that messes up everybody's ideas about christianity - it did mine, I can assure you. afaic he's in heaven (because he's dead you see).

I'm not bristling with theology, me, but imo God's spirit is 'knowable', if you like. We can all access God's spirit and know it for what it is, though we may not be able to name it. eg a song or a painting will have a particular flavour and we know without being told it's by so-and-so. imo it's the same with God's spirit.

Getting to know about God, listening to what he has to say (eg the bible) is definitely one way of getting to know him, as you would get to know anyone by what they say. imo many have submitted to God's spirit without necessarily knowing in their minds what they are doing (the first shall be last etc). They may not know that God paid an exceptionally high price to have a relationship with them and it would probably be a delight, as well as awesome and humbling, to know. They can still have a relationship with God though, even if they don't know. I mean a proper relationship not a pseudo relationship in the mind, say.

The theology goes that it's in the submitting, fully, that the spiritual transaction takes place ie God's spirit joins with ours, literally inhabits our spirit/being. It may be dramatic or it may be, initially, imperceptible, but before long it becomes apparent. YOu have the choice, at any stage, to ignore it or go with it. Again, the bible is handy on this as it shows what he's like and the type of thing he is likely to do. You'd get to know anybody if they'd written a tome of letters to you.

re my ex: he did, as far as he was able (I assume), submit to God's spirit and made the decision to hand his life over to God. It had nothing at all to do with right or wrong, good or bad, but an invitation to relationship that he took up. imo the spiritual transaction took place, regardless of ex's subsequent behaviour, because that is what God has promised he would do and does make a big deal out of not practising favouritism. Ex graphically illustrates that it's not what you do ('good works') or who you are that repairs the breach between you and God, but who God is and what he does. I don't like religion that promotes 'doing things' to 'pay' the way to God. That seems ridiculous to me - how can you possibly pay for something that is absurdly out of your remit?

Sin means, literally, separated from God, not in relationship with God. People do a lot of things with that, some very bad and some not so bad at all, but it's all the same stuff. incidentally, when God's spirit takes up residence it soon becomes apparent that our motives are not as great, or innocuous, as we thought they were. God loves, entirely, and anything he does will have love as the aim - we can't say the same, hand on heart. It's serious stuff here, really serious, even if we in the west don't necessarily bear the brunt of how serious life can be. God loves the world and it is his aim to get his love to the world not just the individual. That too, mind, (lavishly) but he gets it to the individual to get it to the next individual etc, not to sit in a pool in the first individual and go putrid.

Gone on a bit there as per usual

"The severely disabled and children who die, of course, go to heaven." Of course? How can you say that, until relatively recently, doctrine was that unbaptised children went to Purgatory at best!

We don't know why they die so young, or why all of them have the problems they do, but I do believe they were some of our most faithful brothers and sisters. Instead of coming here to be tempted, they were given different (and sometimes overwhelming) challenges to allow for their progress. Do you think people with learning disabilities are exempt from the usual human range of emotion and experience? (what religious types like to call sin, you know, sexual urges, greed, that sort of thing. All normal, natural and experienced by all humans, regardless of how many "challenges" your God chooses to throw at them.

As for those incapable of empathy, it's possible that some are born unaccountable to God as well, but it's also possible that they were born that way because they'd already burned away their conscience before they were born. Ah, original sin, yes? Intrinsic evil?

Well, that's brain-meltingly horrific.

I prefer the American declaration of human rights

"that all are born equal ..."

Springy. well, um....yes. I think family life is important and should be shown as a priority by people in churches, not a priority over those who are not in families as such - but stopping Kids church for august wouldn't affect that, so don't quite get what you're saying? Not sure what I've done to deserve such vitriol from you tbh. Just trying to engage in PARD discussion

Regarding those who have never heard of Jesus... We have a loving and merciful God and we can trust him to do the right thing. We have to imagine that faithful servants such as David and Abraham will be in Heaven, despite not having known Jesus.

We don't know about people who have no contact with the Christian faith, but they are all made in God's image. God will do the right thing them.

The bible tells us what we need to know about salvation, and anyone that reads or hears the bible have some knowledge of Jesus, so biblical teaching does not always apply to those who live in the remote rainforest, or otherwise denied all knowledge of Jesus.

As Christians, we want to make sure that everyone hears about Jesus which is why we believe in evangelism.

The whole grace/deeds discussion: See I don't think anyone can say how it works, who will get into heaven, who won't, how it might work for sociopaths etc etc, because there is simply no way of knowing. For me, I trust that God is just, and I do that because that is my experience. I trust that not one person will be wrongly done by in any way, because my God isn't like that. So the whole 'what about Hindus, what about people who've never heard of Jesus' thing doesn't worry me greatly, because I reckon God has it sussed :)

I always think of the bit in Acts where Paul is visiting a city

cross post Clare - exactly :)

Purgatory is a romish doctrine and in error.

Yes, ideally Christians should be known by their "fruits", although obviously we often fail. But these are fruits of the Spirit, which result from God working through us if we maintain a close relationship with Him. They don't appear by our own efforts and they're far more about personal characteristics than "good deeds". See the "fruits of the spirit" in Galations....

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

I do like your recounting of the story from Acts about the shrine to an unknown God mhd - seems the most charitable way of looking at things from a christian perspective - and quite close to a Quaker view

:) Juggling - I'm just fed up of the Christian viewpoint being seen as so exclusive and arrogant. I don't think Jesus is like that. I think God is fair.

I like Rob Bell's take on all this in Love Wins - he asks some excellent questions about heaven, hell, salvation and God's love. I don't completely agree with all he says but rarely do anyone

vitriol? erm, didn't mean to be vitriolic, apologies. strong, yes, I suppose - it's a subject that gets my hackles up, clearly. I hate to see the onlys in the church, dumbly accepting the family frollicking, for all the world as though it is the norm, having to bear it, going back to their only homes, staying in their only homes pretty much most of the month because all the usual goings on are cancelled, save a skeleton service. I hate that. or the single parents who desperately need kids church so they get a bit of time to themselves. I swear christians would cancel christmas as 'family time' if it weren't so important in the christian calendar.

ONe church I went to the pastor took 6 months off. he only lived down the road but needed a break. we barely noticed - though missed him and his family of course - because we carried on exactly the same 24/7.

It was the 'get over yourself' bit springy. I'm with you to a large extent, actually - churches should be about everyone, not just young families - but was trying to make a point about people getting so ultra busy in churches that they leave no time for their own families/relationships - this happens a lot in church leadership and has a negative effect on children/spouses.

There needs to be a balance. If there are enough kids workers around to keep going through school holidays great. BUt it's often not the case, and we have to make do with what we have while sending out positive messages about priorities. It would be lovely if churches got it more right re single people and single parents. Some are pretty good. Some are lousy. it's the way of things.

What would you do if you were leading a church and had this difficulty of not enough helpers around/everyone buggering off on holiday in the school breaks? :)

I really didn't think anyone still did the whole church on Sunday thing (this is not meant rudely, am just genuinely amazed).

Why do you go?
Cynically, because we need to get into the selective c of e school, not so cynically my DP really believes, and I believe in the community aspects of it and the moral guidance.

Don't you go out dancing and drinking on Sat and have a terrible hangover?
No point, someone will be jumping on my head by 6.30!

Or don't you want to have a lie-in with the papers?
See above!
Do you have roast dinner after?
absolutely, put in the oven on timer! Service is only 9-10 anyway!
Where do you live?
Midlands

ah I see - yourselves I said, meaning mainstream church/CofE/whatever. ie the church has a very high opinion of itself if it thinks it can make a moral stand as if everyone is looking (why not say it instead??). No-one is looking, have you noticed? the church barely registers on our national consciousness. The vast majority of people have not the slightest interest in church, church life, christianity. this thread title attests to that.

it's common practise to down tools over august. it astonishes me tbh. dares to say>> doctors don't down tools over august, which imo is the same thing. I'm not sure what your church is, whether it's an indie church or Establishment (CofE) but I am reminded of Lois in Malcolm in the Middle who was trying to get Dewey a place at a christian school and the whole family piled into church life. She was put on a rota, as all the parents were, to (wo)man the creche. You could make it a condition of those who use the kids church. CRBs? well, there you go, that would have to be an expense.

It's the club-like atmosphere in churches that I particularly don't like. It isn't a club, it's God's living church. so, if people weren't pulling their weight at home you wouldn't soldier on like a martyr picking up their slack, you'd say something. You'd make a fuss. You'd make it known, probably in no uncertain terms. You'd all have it out, there'd be a to-do, and eventually you'd all settle into a fairer system until the next time . It's shying away from conflict - not saying anything, sending messages like morse code when no-one is on that frequency - that makes it club-like, when it's supposed to be a family. not easy, no - it's not supposed to be.

Delegating seems to be a weak point in church life too. yy I know that people passively sit in the 'pews' and expect to be served religion like entertainment, but how is the structure of the church responsible for promoting that? Leaders can be few and far between, when God is speaking to/has a relationship with every one of the congregation, if they're serious about God, and each can bring a tremendous amount to church life - only they don't get the chance. eg the onlys who know all about isolation and loneliness will have a particular view of how God is to/with them in their dark times, which will be of great value to other christians. ie everyone has their own flavour, the flavour of their particular relationship with God, but when/how do they get to show/share that? If there were more leaders, or everyone [was encouraged to] moreorless muck in, the onus wouldn't fall on The Leader, who gets burnt out carrying too much weight. imo The Leader is largely responsible for the lack of balance, or the leadership structure in the CofE, at least (you have to jump through some serious hoops to get anywhere near being A Leader in the CofE).

gone on again

Churches are a collection of people, that's all. So if you think you could make church a better place then come along and do what you can :o

Not whilst God is on the menu

Guava, you can't get in. it's often like a glorified, sprawling PTA - people are vile to you if you don't do it Their Way.

Harsh, but true I'm afraid

what do you mean Mop?