to be amazed at people going to church

[Hullygully]

I really didn't think anyone still did the whole church on Sunday thing (this is not meant rudely, am just genuinely amazed).

Why do you go?

Don't you go out dancing and drinking on Sat and have a terrible hangover?

Or don't you want to have a lie-in with the papers?

Do you have roast dinner after?

Where do you live?

By Wyrd: 'So how do you get into heaven then? Somebody told my DD that if she wasn't baptised she couldn't get into the same heaven as her BFF so is this a Baptism thing?'

Gosh that's an awful thing to be told - and not in the bible! It's not about what you DO but what you BELIEVE, and it's not about one's own opinion (or even what religion tells you) but what God says (in the bible)
Jesus said 'Whoever believes and is baptised will be saved' (Mark 16:16) (and therefore refers to someone who is old enough to make their own belief choice - ie not an infant).

Also, the apostle Paul said 'It is by grace (undeserved favour) we have been saved - not of works (doing good things) lest any person should boast.' Ephesians 2:8-9. Plus 'The wages of sin is death but the GIFT of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord' Romans 6:23

So phew - thank goodness for Jesus swapping my sin for his goodness on the cross - we'd have no chance otherwise! :o

'God so loved the world that he gave his only son that whoever believes shall not perish but have eternal life' John 3:16

I hope these verses above help anyone who's searching :) I think some of you guys would LOVE this website with all answers to the big questions like 'why should i trust the bible' to 'prove God exists' etc :) :) www.answersingenesis.org/get-answers

Thanks for reading :o

In my personal belief, if you'd spent 10 years looking for God and praying earnestly, constantly improving yourself, and finally found out that you needed baptism, and then died before you were able to be baptized, I believe you would likely end up in the highest heaven. If you knew you needed baptism, but kept putting it off for years, and then died without it, that's another story. I believe context matters.

1. I love going, often makes sense of my life
2. Nope, I have a baby!
3. I wish! (see above...)
4. Not every week but sometimes, yes.
5. London

ps average age at my Church is 27. Over 1000 people go each Sunday. Great community - lots of stuff goes on in wider geographical community too.

Yes, I was also reading the story of the two criminals who were crucified either side of Jesus (in Luke's Gospel, like the widow's mite) - one criminal said 'Jesus, remember mr when you come into your kingdom' and Jesus' answer was 'today you will be with me in paradise.' No baptism, belief test etc. Just faith.

There's a lovely Taize song "Jesus, remember me ..."

check it out, and other lovely Taize songs with beautiful images, on YouTube

1. So I can worship and pray with others
2. Somtimes (no hang over as do not drink just do not like the taste)

3.Not at all my kids would'nt let me anyway :) 4.Yes normally with extra friends or family lovely 5.North West Im not baptised by water either I am baptised in spirt though and Its what is in your heart that counts whether you go to church or not its only your inner choices that matters .

Yes, it is a beautiful song :) I've never been to Taize in France - I'd like to go there some time.

Sorry Holo - I should have written the full verse of mark 16:6 'Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.' Note it doesn't say 'whoever is not baptised will be condemned' - - thus I agree - baptism of lesser importance than belief :)

are you have a damascene moment hully?

This is an interesting thread. Thanks for asking the question!

I go to church every Sunday, unless I really can't get there for some reason. Sometimes if I can't get there I will try to go at some other time instead (e.g. managed to get to a lunchtime service last Friday as I knew I wouldn't be there on Sunday). I have done so for about 2 years, following a long (ahem... 30 years or so) break!

Why do you go?
Because it makes me happy. Because it nourishes me spiritually... and, following from that, I suppose, because the Eucharist is central to my faith and taking communion strengthens and supports me in ways that I really can't put into words. Because my dd wants me to take her (and she is 10 and has a choice in this - my other dd chooses not to go and that's OK with me) and recently chose of her own free will to be baptised and confirmed in her faith. Because I enjoy listening to beautiful music and (mostly) inspiring teaching/preaching. Because I think it helps me to be a better person (not that I think I was necessarily a bad person before, or that other people who don't go to church are bad people, of course; but that it supports me in the kinds of moral choices that I would have made anyway). Because I believe that a 'church' is a community and not a building. I could probably go on... but first and foremost it makes me happy.

Don't you go out dancing and drinking on Sat and have a terrible hangover?
Err... no!

Or don't you want to have a lie-in with the papers?
We-ell... I'd like it if the service I went to started an hour later, I must admit. 9.15 on a Sunday is pretty early. But once I drag myself out of bed it's OK. Nothing three cups of coffee won't solve! (I'll admit to not always been immaculately turned-out, but I figure God doesn't mind if my hair's a mess...)

Do you have roast dinner after?
No. Only ever have a roast on Christmas Day!

Where do you live?
North of England.

I go:

• because I love God and like showing love and appreciation for him in worship.
• to understand the Bible better by taking in the sermon.
• to hear people's testimonies of what God has done in their lives (these are sometimes part of the service). Also interesting interviews.
• because I can serve God better as part of a group of his people than on my own. (E g my church runs a drop-in centre for the homeless.)
• so the kids can receive teaching and have fun. They also have trips, sleepovers, parties, etc.
• because I enjoy it. Before we had kids DH and I went to both services (morning and evening).

No.

Church is better than a lie-in with the papers. I used to do that before I became a Christian when I was 30.

We usually have roast chicken afterwards.

I live in Leicester. I go to a big church with great services. 400+ people go to each service (most people go either morning or evening, so that's over 700 people each Sunday.) I met my husband there.

I've been a miserable cah on this thread. sorry all.

Hully, maybe having a faith seems alien and incomprehensible to you because you don't know much about it? Not meaning to be rude; I didn't either till I was 27. (Then I started looking into it after I borrowed a book from a friend. It was 'Mere Christianity' by C S Lewis.)

If you were friends with me you could ask me about it all you wanted! I don't think I'd fall out with someone over that. I did a lot of thinking about Christianity before I made a commitment, so I could probably be objective.

Lucie, I have one friend, an atheist, who won't usually be friends with Christians, but she puts up with me because I wasn't one when she met me. I used not to be friends with Tories, but I feel differently now. In fact I've got a good friend who's a Tory. (It still surprises me sometimes.)

Hully, if you want to ask believers any more questions, feel free to ask me! I like discussions on Christianity and don't mind controversy.

You asked how believers feel about unbelievers. I think, 'That used to be me', and I hope they'll come to know God as I did. It improved my life so much becoming a Christian.

Premier Radio has a good debate show where Christians and non-Christians discuss topics like 'Does God exist?' Its website has podcasts of the shows, articles on questions like 'How can God allow suffering?' (click on 'Resources'), and video interviews on 'Why I Believe'.
www.premier.org.uk/unbelievable

On the Alpha course website there are some accounts of how people came to believe.
uk-england.alpha.org/alpha/blogs (scroll down).
I have helped on a couple of Alphas, and found them very friendly and you could ask what you liked. I think they do vary from church to church though.

HTH.

Springy, click on this link, it might help you :)

It's a church thats less churchy, others exsist.

www.netchurch.org.uk/

Ode2Joy 'Whoever believes and is baptised will be saved'

Thanks for that, my idea that being good was good enough to get you in came from Matthew 25-31, The Sheep and the Goats. It's one of the bits of the bible we've covered in the family services, largely because I was asking about something in a a novel that was obviously based on something biblical which turned out to be based on that (Not "A Horse and his Boy", I spotted that afterwards, this was something from "I Shall Wear Midnight" by Terry Pratchett).

Springy I think you must have had some bad experience with church, and I'm truly sorry about that.

In my experience a lot of churches are not at all as you describe, looking down on anything not MC, etc. I was partly brought up in a church on a very downtrodden council estate and saw many people whose lives were in a complete mess (drugs, relationship breakdown, disempowerment, unemployment etc etc) completely transformed by coming to know Jesus Christ. There was no sense in that church of 'mission to the more unfortunate' - it was simply about engaging with the culture around us and seeing everyone as equally in need of Jesus as everyone else. This whole 'ministering to the unfortunates' sits very uneasily with me because it's not what the gospel is all about at all.

I know a lot of church leaders, some MC, some WC, some unquantifiable. However I have come across something of what you describe, fortunately not very often though. I'm sorry you have this experience but I think you should have an another look at church and a think about what it can mean and what you could bring to it. You have a strong faith but you need others to help you keep going. :)

CheesecakeFan how fantastic - good to hear some of your story.

Ode2Joy just to say as another committed Christian that I'm not at all convinced by that website, just to show there can be differing views while retaining the same tenets of faith :)

Hebie that church link is interesting, it's a CofE pioneer plant which is what we are doing here. :)

It's not just my experience mad, though I've certainly experienced and seen some shockers. My point is that the mainstream church can very much be the way I describe and, imo, that puts people off, as it has put me off - and I'm a fully signed up member of the 'church'; couldn't be more up there and engaged. There's not a week goes by that I don't actively seek out some form of 'church', but anyone wanting to engage with God will, probably and naturally, go to a church as a first step... and come up against this very odd culture, which dominates imo. That is a crying shame, as this is what people invariably encounter, not the gorgeous and amazing God. eg the net church linked above is pretty much 'off' during august, as many CofE (mainstream) churches are - why is that? so 'everyone' can go on holiday and spend time with their families. Except those who will not be going on holiday and don't have families and rely very much on the church community (not to mention God!). During August they have it stuffed in their faces that they are not mainstream, that they don't have the benefits that others in the church not only enjoy but consider absolutely standard; to the point of cancelling church during that time. This is a small but very real example of how MC the church is can be. As far as I'm aware, God doesn't go on holiday and shut up shop.

I am delighted to hear that you have experienced, lived, the way God intends things to be in his church - but your church sounds that it was/is pretty much off the beaten track iyswim. Fabulous that it's there, and others like it - of which there are many.

Hmmm. Interesting point re the August break. There does need to be a good balance though where the church shows it values family life and actively encourages both congregation and leadership to put that as a high priority - the danger is when leaders with families prioritise work to the extent that their family suffers. We always take a fortnight holiday in august as its the school holidays - I think everyone gets this, it's how things are and should be imo. That said, the life of the church would hopefully reflect all members - have an ongoing vibrant life that anyone can key in on at anytime. But kids work stopping through august I don't think is a bad thing. Rest is important.

I agree that when people enter some churches it's just dire and so sad that God is not encountered, but balancing that I serve a big God who is able to connect through the most flawed of places and people. I'm not at all a high church person, the whole bells, smells, robes and organ thing puts me off but I'm quite happy in the knowledge that other people totally encounter God in this and can't stand the more laid back low church I favour. :)

I wish things could be better, but think we have to make the most of what we have, and can do, and really, it can be pretty amazing at times.

the church belongs to everyone, not the favoured few, and should represent everyone - those with and those without families. as for the church 'shows it values family life and actively encourages both congregation and leadership to put that as a high priority' - please, what is that? the fact that you, or the church, even on a local level, feels it has to make pronouncements, albeit in action, which 'guides' society in what it ought and ought not be doing is, if you'll excuse me, desperately middle class and patronising: get over yourselves. If someone wants to take two weeks off to exclusively 'spend time with family' - wierd, if you ask me - then they are welcome to do that, but it shouldn't be a policy imo. If you want to promote 'family life' - even to those who have no blood family - then go ahead and do that within relationships: true family. church is not a club but a living, breathing thing that gets down and dirty and doesn't reserve true relating to behind closed doors with the select few. Family is not separate to church, it is church.

ode2joy: "So phew - thank goodness for Jesus swapping my sin for his goodness on the cross - we'd have no chance otherwise!"

So, if you don't believe in Jesus - perhaps because you have never heard of Jesus, or because you were brought up a Hindu, or perhaps because you feel slightly sceptical about the thing, or perhaps because you were one of the billions of people born in the 200,000 years of human existence before Jesus came along - then you don't get to go to heaven?

Sounds entirely fair.

This has been such an interesting thread.

I can't believe LucieMay's stance on not having friends who go to church. The funny thing is that I didn't know many of my friends were at all religious for years, even decades, some have joined in more since having children or had a christening or just discussed it more. If I'd adopted them as friends safe in the knowledge they weren't religious, I'd have been in for a surprise or two! People's faith and practices can massively change over a lifetime.

I have started going to church later in life, having been brought up in a non-religious household. It's rather strange, as I didn't go to Sunday School or church as a child, so don't have that history. I'm not even sure why I'm there sometimes, just a feeling it's the right thing to do.

hackmum the "never heard of Jesus" people will be judged on what knowledge of the Divine they could encounter plus their deeds according to mainstream theology; but if you're sceptical as in you have had the message of the Gospel presented to you and die not believing it, then that's a problem.

It's "fair" (human definitions do not come into this) because God is acting out of mercy as ALL of us are sinners deserving eternal death- Romans 6 and many others. He has thus no duty to let us into Heaven; but He has provided a way to atone for sins out of love and this requires believing in Him.

The old spiel often used to fight justification by faith (the standard name for this doctrine) is of the really "good" humanist- doctor, businessman, saves thousands of lives and gives millions to charity- being punished at judgment and the serial killer who converts on his deathed going to Heaven. This is fallacious if looked at from the simple above facts: the good man can't earn his way to God because even one little sin severs his spiritual rapport with a thrice-holy, immaculate God. The serial killer can be forgiven despite the horrific extent of his sinning, because Jesus' sacrifice at Calvary was sufficient for any man and any sin.

So how come "their deeds" or how they lived their life comes into it for those who've never heard the gospel, whereas it doesn't for the rest of us. Is that logical ?
If deeds don't come into it, because we all fall short, then they don't come into it surely ?
I think in actual fact most christians are a bit hazy on whether good deeds will help them get to heaven. I think the evangelical/ gospel line is that good deeds should be the fruit of your faith. "By their deeds ye shall know them"