to be amazed at people going to church

[Hullygully]

I really didn't think anyone still did the whole church on Sunday thing (this is not meant rudely, am just genuinely amazed).

Why do you go?

Don't you go out dancing and drinking on Sat and have a terrible hangover?

Or don't you want to have a lie-in with the papers?

Do you have roast dinner after?

Where do you live?

Ode2Joy, thank you for your response.

God created the Garden of Eden, he created the serpent, and he deliberately put the Tree of Knowledge in the Garden. That's the set up. Second, god is omniscient. He knew that Eve would listen to the serpent, eat the forbidden fruit and persuade Adam to eat it as well. He could have intervened. He could have not created the serpent at all. He could have put the Tree somewhere else entirely.

So god set up the situation in the full knowledge that Adam and Eve would fail. Adam and Eve, these totally naive and inexperienced first humans, were held to impossibly high standards. God set them up to fall. If it was so critically important that Adam and Eve didn't eat that fruit, why put the tree there in the first place? That's like putting a fairy cake in front of a toddler, walking off and then acting surprised when all that's left are crumbs.

Not just that, the punishment for that single transgression was out of all proportion to the offence. For that one bad decision (that god ensured would happen), not only were Adam and Eve cursed to a life of pain, suffering and death but everyone ever since has been similarly cursed as well. So a single, finite transgression resulted in infinite punishment not just for those who transgressed but for everyone.

Sure, Jesus offers a Get Out Of Jail Free for this. But all that Jesus' suffering achieved was to exempt some humans from god's arbitrary and disproportionate punishment for a transgression committed by someone else and that god made sure would happen anyway.

How is this the actions of a loving, just father?

Just to be accurate Snorbs, as I'm sure you know, it wasn't The Tree of Knowledge. It was The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Which actually makes the setup a shade worse. How could Eve have known it was wrong? If she had no knowledge of good and evil, the punishment was for disobeying an arbitrary rule.

Good point. Also, god said that if Adam or Eve did eat from that tree then they would surely die. But Adam and Eve wouldn't have had any idea of what death is. They'd only just been created and were in any case immortal. How could they possibly comprehend death?

It's remarkable really (IMHO) that as a society and in the christian tradition so many people are still trying to take such an old story so literally.

I think there's much of value to take from the christian tradition, such as some beautiful prayers, and the idea that we all need grace and forgivenesss (particularly with and from each other) in our lives.

But people seem to be scared to move forwards and move on, for fear of losing what they hold dear. IMHO the christian tradition is in many churches moving backwards away from any liberalism or post-modernism, and back to a very literal, evangelical faith, similar perhaps to how people believed in the middle-ages (but I dare say there are some differences & not always good ones - I think in the old days people had more understanding of truth within story - that's what we need to re-claim/ re-discover)

When we bring a child into the world, we do it in the full knowledge that they are being born into a world where dreadful stuff happens, where they'll be hurt, where they will suffer pain and loss. But we still bring that child into the world, because we want a child, and we do our best to stop them from experiencing pain, but when they do, we love them through it.

For me that's more like God. God wanted relationship and thus made people

Well said Juggling.

I can believe that there was a chap called Jesus who was a brilliant speaker and built up a following. I could also believe that when he spoke he was so interesting that people forgot they were hungry ( loaves & fishes story) or was so entertaining at a party that there was no need for wine, everyone felt great just listening to him (water into wine). But the major religions insist on acceptance of these stories (and the rest of the Bible) not as symbolic, but as fact. :(

Mad, that might just about work if all the pain and suffering in this world was as a result of bad choices made by people (it's still pretty crap as the consequences are often inflicted on others). But a lot of it is caused by natural phenomena. How on earth is our free will responsible for an earthquake or a parasite or a virus?

You know all the theory Grimma :) As I said up there somewhere, I believe the earth was skewed when people originally went against God, the whole of creation fell and is 'waiting with baited breath for restoration.' Something went horribly off kilter.

Do you know what, when I write all this stuff I am totally aware of how the arguments aren't always terribly logical or stand up to more robust arguments. I've never been one to think I can argue my way into changing minds. I'm not doing that, simply trying to give some perspective from someone who fervently believes in God and in Jesus Christ as more than a nice chap. But I'm never going to be able to do any convincing. That's OK. I'll still join in, and still witness to my experience :)

But the major religions insist on acceptance of these stories (and the rest of the Bible) not as symbolic, but as fact

To be fair, much of Christendom, while tending to believe the miracles of the NT take much of the OT as myth. The deeper problem lies in the 'truths' these myths are supposed to illustrate - the belief in original sin, the notion that anyone else's sacrifice can earn forgiveness from that sin (which is can lead to an abrogation of personal responsibility)

So anyone... if you were God for the afternoon, and the world hadn't been created yet, what would YOU do?

I especially like your first paragraph mhd - that seems very reasonable.

I quite like to think of a God who is doing his or her best but is not perfect - a bit like us !
So (having studied geology a bit at Uni) suppose God wanted to create dry land for us to live on, and so he/she created the plates and enabled them to move to create more land as sediment from the seas got pushed up to make mountains - but he/she wasn't able to make them move completely smoothly, so sometimes they jolt a bit, and then there's an earthquake. But maybe that was the best system he/she could make ! (I think it's partly about being thankful - of seeing that the glass is more than half full, and not half empty )

I don't believe all that literally either, but what I feel is important is that the idea of an omniscient and yet loving God doesn't really work for me (For the sort of reasons Snorbs and Grimma have mentioned)

At the end of the day I'm left really with finding truth within story, of valuing faith as a human creation in all it's different manifestations around the world, of being thankful for life and all the blessings that I and others can enjoy in our lives on this Earth, and as Quakers say of "listening to the promptings of love and truth in my heart" - though of course I can't always live up to that ideal. I do find that there's a still, small voice of calm though

I believe the earth was skewed when people originally went against God

So when was that? There were tectonic plates before there were humans. There were meteors crashing around wiping out - presumably sinless - dinosaurs. Was there some brief period when everything in the Garden was lovely, the viruses and parasites evolved thus far went into stasis....

I begin to see why some people withdraw totally from the real world into fundamentalism because its very hard to take the metaphorical interpretation of genesis far before falling into absurdity.

Yeh I know Grimma. I get that, I really do.

arf at sinless meteors

I'm not going to patronise you with answers on this one because I really do not know and I am shit at anything science related

Juggling I love your last paragraph :)

Thanks mhd and to mop a bit further back - it's lovely to have your thoughts appreciated by others

[It was the dinosaurs which were sinless. The meteors were just Shit That Happened, bigtime].

Jugglings last para works for me too. I just don't think the 'voice' is necessarily anything external.

I'm laughing at the sinless dinosaurs here too

• They seemed like pretty big, mean, monsters on Jurassic Park !

Oh, and I don't always think of the voice as something other either Grimma - I'm a bit of a fence sitter - nice view from up here on a good day - can hopefully strike up some friendly conversations with those on either side

Ahhh I see.

I don't know though. You're right, arguments descend into some kind of level of absurdity when we're not easily able to explain the whole timeline of stuff. I've never been too flustered about when exactly things happened, and how, but maybe I am naive in that. As I keep saying, my experience of God keeps me longing to share that. And I'm not hiding my head in the sand - I've read widely on all this - I honestly don't have a scientific bone in my body so to try and recreate stuff I've read/defend any position would be somewhat counterproductive and, well....absurd.

1. Why do you go?

Because despite being a card-carrying atheist, DS is a cathedral chorister and attendance at one of the 10 services he sings at is kind of expected. Actually I enjoy it more than I would have imagined. It's time to reflect and think. I wish they did the service in Latin though. I don't like the fact they expect some level of active engagement :)

1. Don't you go out dancing and drinking on Sat and have a terrible hangover?

In my dreams

1. Or don't you want to have a lie-in with the papers?

I can't remember what a lie-in is and I doubt I'd enjoy one now

1. Do you have roast dinner after?

Generally do a roast of some description for lunch - usually for between 8&10 people. You do the cooking first and stick the joint in on the way out.

1. Where do you live?

Somewhere in England

Ah well mad, there are two ways you can go with the timeline. One is to ignore reality and go with the AiG route and have the dinosaurs drowned by the flood or whatever (so why are there no vegetarian dinos left?).

The other (wheres HolofernesHead when you need her?) is to play the trump card of God being outside of time so the actual point of mans fall is irrelevant. Something like that anyhow.

No2. That's where I'm at. Just crap at explaining it. It makes a lot of sense to me

I feel it's OK not to know all the answers, to change our minds at times, as post-modernists to hold more than one view at a time - stuff like that.

After all, we're only human

• Hope you're feeling OK, mhd

Thanks Juggling :) A lot better after this course. Just waiting for energy to happen :)

I agree, I think it's healthy to admit to not knowing all the answers and to think around it all.

I think it's healthy to admit to not knowing all the answers and to think around it all.

Hey, thats just like a scientist!

nah, much too non specific and post-moderny and airy fairy