To wonder if talking to your child should take precedence over reading your book

[clemetteattlee]

I genuinely don't know how I feel about this one but it has been on my mind since yesterday (I am revising for exams so my mind is easily distractable at the moment) so I thought I'd see what you think.

At the cafe of the swimming baths with my daughter last night, waiting for my MIL and son to finish his lesson and come down. Next to us was a woman reading a novel and a child who must have been about eight or nine. For half an hour she read her book and didn't speak to him. He didn't have anything to do but equally wasn't playing up. He just stood there watching the world go by, occasionally scuffing his heels.

Now I am by no means the perfect parent - my daughter and I were playing drawsomeon my phone not having a deep chat, and when I am on holiday or at home I do get engrossed in a book and try and encourage my two to do something independently, but they are in an environment where there is stuff to do rather than in a grungy cafe with nothing to occupy them.

I am not judging this woman, who knows what her child/relationship/background is like, but I suppose I wondered if this is unusual behaviour, or maybe I just play "entertainer" to mine too readily?

You disagree? So you think they should have all the rights outlined in my post?
No you don't.

I don't think that it is anything to do with rights. With your family you can feel comfortable and can do your own thing- they are not strangers that you have to make polite chit chat to.

I grew up in a house where we all read a lot, even at the breakfast table, and yes even now we would sit in the lounge in the evening and read independently. If one person is doing 'nothing', that's fine.

I would read when out with DH/friend/other adult, if they were content, although it is hard to imagine them actually doing 'nothing'.

It all boils down to whether the child was happy, and none of us knows that.

You're thinking of basic non-negotiable rights, but I'm thinking of the right to demand attention- no, it's not polite. It's the adult's prerogative to choose to be impolite but a child should not have that right- simply because it's not good for them. Children have the right to react how they want- but they don't necessarily have the right to express the reaction. Many spontaneous decisions must be controlled with self discipline. So yas, I do genuinely believe that children have fewer rights. Because I go by a different definition of 'rights', probably.

Children have equal rights to adults full stop. Like adults there are consequences if they don't follow rational rules. If my child doesn't brush her teeth/eat her tea even with the consequences that follow I am not going to hold her down and force a toothbrush/fork into her mouth because that would be an infringement of her human rights.

My DC is not going to have rotten teeth- cleaning them is not negotiable. I agree with our orthodontist - he told my 16yr old that if he didn't clean around his brace his mother would have to do it!
They can choose whether to eat a meal - but if they choose not to they won't get an alternative.
Adults have more life experience that DCs and need to use it!

But the basics are the same. They have the right to be respected just as we do. I just find it odd when people say that children have to get used to being treated in a way that they wouldn't put up with. I only mention all this, however in response to quirrel quarrel's assertion that children don't have the right to be "taken seriously" or have their requests considered and weighed up.

The rules for my husband are the laws of the land so there are consequences if he should choose to be violent/drink drive/break other laws. We dont tell each other what to do?!?

You don't tell each other what to do because you are more or less equal on life experience. Your job is to guide the DC, not have them turn round when they are an adult and say ' why didn't you make me clean my teeth' - I don't think they will be too impressed with 'we asked you nicely and didn't want to infringe your human rights'- they will think 'don't be so wet - you were supposed to be the adult'!

No full stop about it. You haven't even defined what "rights" are, and its a matter of opinion. As I said, in MY house children certainly have less rights than the adults. My two year old understands that.
You may have different rules and opinions, as is your right. Nothing "full stop" about it.

It would be an infringement of human rights to force a child to brush their teeth? Well I''ve certainly infringed my toddlers "human rights" then, since I reckon their right to teeth is slightly more important, and toddlers don't really understand the consequences of not brushing.

Years ago children had the right to work all day in dangerous occupations, get married, go to sea for years on end, rule empires, fight wars. .

I wonder why things have changed.

I think perhaps the adults have realised that children are developing, their cognition is different to an adults and therefore certain rights are not appropriate.

In fact the UN's rights for children centres on them being allowed to be children

I spent many years as a history/citizenship teacher and my definition of rights is based on the International Convention of Human Rights and the Convention on the Rights of the Child. My views are well summarised here

Saying that I have never had to FORCE my children to brush their teeth. Lots of medical textbooks in a house to show the consequences of not brushing seem to have done the trick without forcing a brush between clenched teeth!
There is a middle ground between being "wet" and dismissing their rights out of hand as quirrel appeared to do...

Interesting turn this thread has taken.

Article 12 of the internationally legally binding convention: "Article 12 (Respect for the views of the child): When adults are making decisions that affect children, children have the right to say what they think should happen and have their opinions taken." That is why I disagree with quirrelquarrel.

Things have changed aboutlastnight because EVERYONE has had their rights recognised. Hurray for that.

They can say what they think, have their opinions taken, and then completely over-ridden by the adults. Adults do this all day long. You do it too, you know when they express their desire to eat chocolate for breakfast and not go to school, and you say here's your weetabix and put your uniform on? Thats you trampling all over their rights to self determination that is.

Bet your medical textbooks work wonderfully on an 18month old.

I don't think that a 2yr old cleans their teeth because they have followed the logical argument through pictures in text books! I tried to make it fun and persuade them - but they were going to have them cleaned - it was not a choice!

I lean more towards natural consequences. It doesn't suit all but it is working OK for us so far (and worked for 12 years in the classroom...)

Did they ever object exotic? Mine never have done. I suspect it is the sparkly strawberry flavoured toothpaste that reminds them of Calpol...

No - my whole body language said 'you are going to clean your teeth'!

You have them from birth - routines are useful.

So, no rights infringed? They chose to comply.

Op, I think the issue here is that you are an extrovert. It is entirely normal for introverts to sit around for ages, alone, or in a friendly silence in company, staring into space while they explore all kinds of imaginary worlds in their head. It is also quite normal to read a book in the company of either another adult or a child. Other people are not there to provide constant entertainment for extroverts.

In the times I have picked children up from childcare and there only been an hour until they went for bath and bed, if I had insisted on talking to them for the whole hour, it would have driven them crazy because they have been sociable all day already and need some psychological space.

I think perhaps you need to think of it from the psychological perspective of other people. As an introvert, I will sometimes keep another adult entertained if they are an extrovert and would struggle if I read, but in general extroverts are also able to understand that introverts need their space and it doesn't make them bad parents or weird kids.