To wonder if talking to your child should take precedence over reading your book

[clemetteattlee]

I genuinely don't know how I feel about this one but it has been on my mind since yesterday (I am revising for exams so my mind is easily distractable at the moment) so I thought I'd see what you think.

At the cafe of the swimming baths with my daughter last night, waiting for my MIL and son to finish his lesson and come down. Next to us was a woman reading a novel and a child who must have been about eight or nine. For half an hour she read her book and didn't speak to him. He didn't have anything to do but equally wasn't playing up. He just stood there watching the world go by, occasionally scuffing his heels.

Now I am by no means the perfect parent - my daughter and I were playing drawsomeon my phone not having a deep chat, and when I am on holiday or at home I do get engrossed in a book and try and encourage my two to do something independently, but they are in an environment where there is stuff to do rather than in a grungy cafe with nothing to occupy them.

I am not judging this woman, who knows what her child/relationship/background is like, but I suppose I wondered if this is unusual behaviour, or maybe I just play "entertainer" to mine too readily?

Children that are routinely ignored do not get taken to swimming lessons.

Children that have a parent who will organise their kit, book and pay for swimming lessons, drive them there, take some change for a drink or snack afterwards and remember to drop their own fav book into their handbag are not parents who ignore, ill-treat,under-stimulate etc.

To find the ignored kids you need to look outside the doors of the leisure centre, they'll be the ones sitting on the curb, bumping through the car-park on skateboards, looking sort of grey. (and they wont be able to swim as they wont have been to lessons)

She may well have expected the 8/9yo to be responsible for bringing his own entertainment. Hardly a Herculean task for somebody that age. Presumably he knew where they were going and that they would be waiting for some time.

Wow you are really observant. Makes you wonder whether you were spending too much time spying on other people and not enough time playing games on your phone with your daughter.

You ask "how can you tell...." - well actually why do you need to know?

""How can you tell which children are being neglected and which are choosing not to speak?"

Now you're being ridiculous. Sitting quietly in a cafe does not = neglect.

So, say you had an hour with your seven/eight year old child each day after school before bed would you routinely do your own thing and expect them to do theirs? I am genuinely interested - it goes beyond this family as I have acknowledged that I have no idea about the background/circumstances - so perhaps I am just projecting, but during the school week I couldn't imagine not talking/interacting for the short amount of time I have.
Is there anyone on here who works full-time who would do this during the week?

Some children aren't chatty - my older girl isn't. It is OK not to talk you know, sometimes silence is just the ticket, to read a book or just watch the world go by. My older girl would rather sit in companionable silence than be badgered into conversation. She is very relaxing company, unlike her extrovert little sister who will not shut up.

My DH is dead against it being our job to 'entertain' our children. He is of the old fashioned parenting school - his parents didn't entertain him and he got on with things himself. I aim for a balance, as it is lovely to do things for your children, but not your duty 24/7 as a parent.

You really are projecting.

How on earth could you know that woman you saw in the cafe only has an hour with her child? Did she wear a badge informing you of her working hours? For all you know, she may not work at all.

Why do you feel this need to judge her by standards that relate to your personal situation?

I know you are looking for a discussion, but "neglected"????

I think it's good for children to learn to amuse themselves, to sit still, to have a little think

I think it's good for children to learn that it's mummy't turn to read a book

I worry about our tendency to over-stimulate children

And you can't tell what was happening from a halfhour snapshot of these people's lives.
She might have been ignoring him, because he had been naughty, been seriously told off at school.
Anything

YABU (I think) although I do have this dilemma with DS (20 mo) in terms of when I shd look to interact with him and when I should leave him to his own devices to think/ play/ figure things out for himself. So, if he's playing Duplo,. shd I join in, or just let him work it out?

I have read many threads on here advocating that you should talk to babies/ toddlers constantly to develop their language, and I can see why it's important to talk to them often, but I just can't keep up a monologue 12 hrs a day or talk for the sake of it.

What time of day was this? If she'd collected him from school, sits with him for 1/2 hour, takes him back home, eats dinner with him, puts him to bed (or maybe shock horror he puts himself to bed) then there is plenty of time for interaction. School finishes at 3.30,bedtime for an 8 year old may be 8pm.

When did it become outrageous to ponder the lives of others? I only noticed him because he was looking over and I was contemplating asking him if he wanted to join in but thought perhaps he was just curious.

That's the problem with all this studying - you keep trying to apply theory to reality! A red flag for a neglect of a baby is one who no longer cries even if they need something. Some children don't speak to their parents because they are sadly afraid of the consequences. There was nothing in this situation to cause me anycncern, only interest in the way people raise their children, which is why I started by saying I was genuinely interested in the views of others.

fyi when dd was that age we spent many weeks in each other's company 24/7 as she had a fluctuating health condition and needed constant attention

I was often up until 4 o'clock in the morning talking to her

on the rare occasions we made it out, I would have hated for our relationship to be judged by a passing stranger on criteria devised for her totally different family

I loved Why French Children Don't Throw Food though it was about upper middle class Parisians. But interesting to see how others child rear.

Can I just repeat that I don't judge this woman, it just got me thinking. I will go off and read the French children book (not keen on being shouted at for asking genuine questions, should have posted in chat not AIBU).

I think, providing the DC are not up to mischief and annoying others, that it's posivtively good for them to entertain themselves mentally. And it's good for them to see adults enjoying books.

Genuine theoretical debate would not include emotive words such as ignore and neglect.

And as previous posters have said, neglectful mothers don't take their children swimming.

That's it May - just an interest in how others do it. Have read lots of threads on here judging mothers for ignoring their toddlers to text and just wondered if it's possible to tell whether, at aged 8, their quiet is a consequence of years of that or of personal/family choice. Not to judge but because I am interested in how social and family dynamics work.
Head back in the books...

It is an interesting debate, and I do have doubts over benign neglect vs. high input parenting because I worry i'll go too far one way or the other.

No one shouted at you. You asked if you were being unreasonable and every single poster said that you were!

PS, as the child of an abusive mother I can categorically say that neglectful mothers do take their children swimming. Have you not come across the stately home thread?

I have done that when I've told my dc to put something in to do for while they wait and they have chosen/forgotten to. They usually remember after that.

I don't think you have really understood your studies if you think any SW or similar professional would be wise to judge a relationship on the grounds that an 8yo kept silent for 30 minutes in a cafe.

Please try to remember that a baby that doesn't cry is very different from an 8yo who may not be very talkative. 8yos do not have the same needs as babies and they definitely do not have the same perspective on time.

An 8yo who is silent for 30 minutes may be silent because he isn't used to talking to his mum, or because they have just spent hours talking and he needs a break, or because he is busy pondering the likely outcome of the Sweden-England match, or because he is in a strop or for a zillion other reasons.

If it had been my dd, it would most likely have been because she was busy plotting her next story in her head- a direct result of all those hours spent lovingly introducing her to literature.

I didnt really ask if I was being unreasonable because I didn't actually state a view!! I just asked the question...

'Routinely' is stretching it but I don't see why it's a problem. In our house I'm usually making supper, DS is busy doing his own thing and the main connection point of the day is when we sit down and eat together. We don't feel the need to be in each other's pockets all the time.

I didn't think you could judge it on 30 minutes but I was intrigued that every response assumed it was benign neglect. I don't know, no-one does, but can you assume?