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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Is it U to use the NHS when you dont live in the UK ?

219 replies

bijou3 · 09/06/2012 18:42

My sister had a baby last weekend, the poor nurses were so busy as the maternity ward was full. Some of the Mothers in the ward were talking apparently 5 women in the ward were from the Middle East (UK citizens living there) that had come back to the UK to give birth. They were laughing about how they earn TAX free money but instead of using their health care abroad they use the NHS FOC for each delivery. I couldn?t believe that 5 women were all sponging off the NHS in one hospital, how many others do this?

OP posts:
sharklet · 11/06/2012 18:59

That's if a person is naturalised, I think that most countries let a person be born as dual nationals, though. For instance, Americans demand that upon becoming a naturalised American, new citizens have to renounce all other nationalities (witness Anthony Hopkins). However I can keep my American nationality even after becoming naturalised to something else, too (?would take a constitutional amendment to change that position).

As it currently stands the oath you make to become a naturalised citizen of the US requires to to forswear your former nationality

"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God."

The US does not technically recognise dual nationality for adults. If for example a US citizen became a citizen of another country - they would automatically loose thier US nationality as soon as they swore the oath to become a naturalised citizen of said country. The laws in the US are such that once you have done that they have the right to take you passport should they wish to do so. Many cases of Americans wanting to seek dual nationality to connect with a part of thier family have fallen fould of that (especially those seeking mexican / american dual nationality have fallen foul of this) but that is becasue as a young nation the US are aware of their need to bind thier citizens with oath and pledges. Kids here pledge their alliegance every day in school.

However if you are a forgeign national of a country with much odler laws this is where the grey area exists. With much older nations like our own and many other European nations, our laws are so old with regard to this that in order for a British Citizen to give up thier nationality and that to be legally recognised by Britain - you would have to (after having sworn your allegiance to the US or other country) go to the UK - and swear in court before a judge that you were no longer a British Citizen. Otherwise the crown does not recognise our right to simply swear to someone else that we give up our nationality. The US chooses not to enforce this and turns a blind eye to this loophole - which means that most British Citizens who have taken up US nationality are technically still able to use both passports quite legally. The US could choose at any time to change thier standing on this and insist that people legally forswear in thier parent nation as well but currently they choose not to. Anyone who decided to forswear thier British Nationality in a British court of law does this of thier own volition and not becasue they have been required to by the US. So although you would be perjuring youeself to do so you can become a US citizen whilst knowing that the crown doesn't give a rats what you've sworn and who to and you can be dual.

My DD is dual Brit / American - I would never want US citizen ship for any reasons, but my excuse has always been I'd rather not perjure myself and I am certainly never legally giving up my Britishness.....

AdventuresWithVoles · 11/06/2012 20:13

If for example a US citizen became a citizen of another country - they would automatically loose thier US nationality as soon as they swore the oath to become a naturalised citizen of said country.

That is NOT true

From the US Embassy in UK:

In the 1980's, the Supreme Court ruled that U.S. citizenship is a constitutional right that cannot be taken away from a citizen who does not intend to relinquish it. Therefore, such actions as naturalization in a foreign country, travel on a foreign passport, employment with a foreign government, and voting in a foreign election do not automatically jeopardize American citizenship.

Note that's for people born to be US citizens, there may be different rules for naturalised US citizens. As there would be if evidence of treason were involved in taking the oath of loyalty to foreign power.

BalloonSlayer · 11/06/2012 21:17

Sharklet your earlier post 18:35 made me both sad and proud.

Hope things go well for you.

sharklet · 12/06/2012 03:40

But thier argument is that by taking an oath to another nation you ARE voluntarily intending to relinquish it. There have been many people who have taken you view on that particular wording and have found themselves stripped of American Nationality. Particularly those who are US citizens taking Mexican (and some other nations) which expressly in their oath relinquish any allegiance to America (named) The government can use it to mean what they want... so while some have go away with it (Michele Bachmann being an exception - but she pretty quickly stopped the procedure to become a swiss citizen once it was out in the news.)- others are heavily punished.

I for one prefer keeping the citizenship I was born with as I am lucky that I was born British.

sharklet · 12/06/2012 04:13

Thanks BalloonSlayer have given the heave ho to the American system an opted for a home birth and now my blood pressure is low and non scary again. Still wish I could sneak home in someone suitcase though!!

HerMajestyQueenHillyzabethII · 12/06/2012 04:23

Well all British citizens are entitled to use the NHS regardless of whether they contribute anything at all in tax anyway (and millions of people live in the UK their whole lives and don't contribute any tax) so I am not exactly what your point is.

Most of those expats will have private health cover so perhaps the NHS will send a bill?

Bijou you used to live in the Middle East yourself, benefitting from a tax free income IIRC so I'm not so sure why you seem to take every opportunity to criticise others who do it?

If you want to worry about health tourism then why don't you focus on the non-British people who deliberately arrive there to take advantage of free health care?

HerMajestyQueenHillyzabethII · 12/06/2012 04:27

In fact I think you already know the answer to your own question don't you?

I lived in Dubai for a few years. It really is not great in fact for me it was hell on earth. It is so different to the UK everything is so backwards, trying to communicate with people over there is so hard, most of the people employed there are from the 3rd world so it runs as a 3rd world country. I really appreciate how amazing the UK is after living in the Middle East.

Healthcare is awful ALL of the Arabs come to the UK or Europe for medical treatment, the ruler of Dubai will pay for Arab nationals to go abroad for treatment so I think that tells you how awful it is over there. One of my friends gave birth at the American hospital in Dubai, they told her that her baby had flat feet and that the baby needed a cast from the waist down to his ankles to correct it. They agreed (first time parents and they trusted the Dr) a family member (who happened to be a Doctor) flew in from the UK to visit the baby and was horrified when he saw the poor baby and told them to remove it straight away. Thing like this happen all the time all the hospitals want is your money.

HerMajestyQueenHillyzabethII · 12/06/2012 04:36

So given the above comment, what would you have done if you'd needed obstetric or paediatric care while you were there and you didn't trust the quality of the services?

bijou3 · 12/06/2012 06:19

Oh you have been busy stalking haven?t you? If you looked properly why you were snooping through all my previous posts you will see that I already stated that I don?t use the NHS.
The NHS is for people that need it not for expats that gloat about tax free salaries and how wonderful living abroad is compared to the UK and then come back to sponge off the country.

OP posts:
HerMajestyQueenHillyzabethII · 12/06/2012 06:32

I didn't need to stalk you Bijou I remember you very clearly from other threads on the ME.

You seem to be very very bitter about your time in the ME for some readon, and it forms a recurrent theme in many of your posts.

so, anyway - had you been nervous of childbirth in Dubai would you have come home to have the baby? Ok, so you have private medical insurance - so do most of us here. I have no idea whether that would cover childbirth away from the ME unless it was an emergency and you went inot prem labour. If you had put yourself there deliberatlely around your due date then maybe you would not be covered - I have no idea. But if you didn't have cover for whatever reason would you (hypothetically) have offered up some of your hard earned cash to the midwife before waiting to be presented with the bill from the NHS?

I'm assuming you would. Good for you. If only we were all just like you the world would be a marvellous place.

HerMajestyQueenHillyzabethII · 12/06/2012 06:33

(sorry when I say 'so do most of us here' I mean the ME)

HerMajestyQueenHillyzabethII · 12/06/2012 06:35

And stop with the 'snooping' will you? This is a public forum with an archive I am perfectly entitled to access for reference. I am not reading your fecking diary.

HerMajestyQueenHillyzabethII · 12/06/2012 07:01

The NHS is wonderful IMO. Every time I have used it I have had a pleasant, efficient service.

If you looked properly why you were snooping through all my previous posts you will see that I already stated that I don?t use the NHS.

Confused Which is it?

bijou3 · 12/06/2012 07:17

I was talking about visiting my sister in hospital and taking my friend to A&E a couple of weeks ago FYI. I also had my children before I moved abroad, privately on the NHS for which I received a fantastic service. The NHS IS wonderful it?s just a shame people abuse it.

Why are expats soooo aggressive you really need to calm down. I remember you from before (you had a different name then) so I will stop posting now or else you will turn this thread into another thread about how crap the UK is.

OP posts:
MEExpat · 12/06/2012 07:37

I've had two babies in the ME. One in a private hospital, where DD nearly died due to lack of proper care and appalling practice and one in public, which was pretty basic but OK. I would have come home but couldn't leave my other children for the 6 weeks/ two months travel time. The only women i know who went home for their babies are american (2) and belgian (1).

There are very few women here who have been here for longer than 5 years, the norm is much less.

There are 100,000 brits here in total. What the birthrate is i've no idea but of the 50 births i know of in AD for the past 3 years none took place outside.

MoreBeta · 12/06/2012 07:45

Oh I know loads of people on benefits who use the NHS and never pay a penny in tax.

HerMajestyQueenHillyzabethII · 12/06/2012 08:08

I do not believe the UK is crap, and you will never find me saying that ever. Neither do I believe the ME is wonderful and perfect. We all do what we can to get by the best way we can Bijou - even you.

HerMajestyQueenHillyzabethII · 12/06/2012 08:13

I don't think I have been in the least bit aggressive Bijou.

HerMajestyQueenHillyzabethII · 12/06/2012 08:15

Hoever, if you have found expats aggressive in the past perhaps it's because you persist in criticising and mocking them and making endless digs at their expense, whilst conveniently forgetting that you 'gloated' Hmm over a tax free salary for a few years yourself.

MrsFruitcake · 12/06/2012 08:18

Abuse of the service the NHS offer are rife and measure should be taken to stop it before the service is withdrawn for all of us.

People who come here to work and settle are being treated straight away, sometimes for fertility issues which will cost the NHS thousands, even though they have yet to put anything 'in the tax pot'. How is that fair? I don't understand and I worked on the NHS frontline as a medical receptionist so I do know a bit about what I'm talking about.

HerMajestyQueenHillyzabethII · 12/06/2012 08:41

Yes MrsF and despite the fact that me, my DH and my children were all born and brought up in the UK, the minute we came to the ME (less than a year ago) my children lost the right to be considered as 'domestic' students for university applications. I have a son of 17 and we must pay overseas tuition fees (much higher than domestic ones) when he goes to uni, and he is no longer eligible for a cheap student loan. We must make our own arrangements to fund him, or get a loan at commercial rates.

He has spent his entire life in the UK , as the child of a higher rate tax payer, all but for the last few months. And yet another child who may have arrived in the UK aged 16 or 17 as a foreign national, with no history of UK tax paying parents at all , acan be given a British passport and then will be entitled to domestic rate tuition fees, a student loan, and a grant (if applicable according to family income.)

How is that fair?

MrsFruitcake · 12/06/2012 08:46

I'm talking about people who were not born in the UK, and whose children weren't either.

HerMajestyQueenHillyzabethII · 12/06/2012 08:50

To be honest this is what happens when you run a country which gives people something for nothing. Yay! Free money! Quick, let's all jump on a plane and grab some before they see sense and change their minds!

If people can take it, they will. Even if they are not supposed to. Because for years and years no-one has stopped them. And if the people who have paid into the tax pot for years can see a way to claw a tiny bit of something back when the opportunity arises then who can blame them?

Blame the crazy system, not the people who 'abuse' it.

Anyway, Bijou you still haven't answered my question about what you would have done, given that you have a very poor opinion of healthcare in Dubai, if you had been PG while you were there and your medical insurance did not cover you for a private birth in the UK?

I want to know if your DH would have got his cheque book out while you were having your vitamin K jab. Wink

HerMajestyQueenHillyzabethII · 12/06/2012 08:51

Yes I know MrsF I am not disagreeing with you, just adding another strand to the arguement!

Mustgettogym · 12/06/2012 09:06

So? I spend 6 months in the UK and 6 months abroad but my family are all from the UK. I came back to be near my mother and it's less forms to fill out for passport application for DC.

I have paid taxes in the UK since I was 16.

And ludicrous that I should he expected to find and register a doctor abroad rather than the same doctor I have been going to since I was about 13.

And you are painting a stupid scene of evil women cackling about not paying taxes. Lucy them, but dies not make them unreasonable. That's just the way it goes sometimes and if you were in their position I would love to see you on your moral high horse and gave your baby in The middle east where most if the doct

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