Is it U to use the NHS when you dont live in the UK ?

[bijou3]

My sister had a baby last weekend, the poor nurses were so busy as the maternity ward was full. Some of the Mothers in the ward were talking apparently 5 women in the ward were from the Middle East (UK citizens living there) that had come back to the UK to give birth. They were laughing about how they earn TAX free money but instead of using their health care abroad they use the NHS FOC for each delivery. I couldn?t believe that 5 women were all sponging off the NHS in one hospital, how many others do this?

Not really though, if non-residents are habitually coming back just to take advantage of the NHS for the more expensive things (like childbirth/ major ops etc). It happens a lot, not so much from Asia, but when I was in the middle east, there were a lot of people going back to the Uk to give birth as they didn't want to pay the fees in Dubai or go to the government hospital there.

You basically used the system based on your residency at the time, which is fine. The person who got the benefit of "your UK taxes" should be a new resident of the UK.

I guess the view I take is that there are often big financial advantages to being a non-UK resident that some other nationalities (notably Americans who have worldwide taxation) don't get, so don't then take the piss out of the system.

I live away from the UK and I am about to go back to give birth there. Just because I live abroad does not necessarily mean I should be less entitled to the NHS.

I have worked and paid my taxes for a decade in the UK! When the financial crisis hit my work contract finished. Despite having excellent education and experience I could not find many jobs that were reasonable. I worked in the voluntary sector and many jobs there suffered a lot, some turned into internships, others just paid pittance. I tried retail but I was overqualified without a days' retail experience.

I was on the verge of having to go on benefits. Instead I choose to come to a war zone work here (pay taxes) sending my salary back to the UK where I put it in a savings account, maintain a flat in London including paying council tax, electricity, gas and water. I also help several charities through direct debit.

I think I am much more entitled to the NHS now than if I had chosen to be on benefits while doing an internship etc... (I am not saying people that are on benefit should not be entitled to the NHS - I am just stating my own sense of entitlement).

Also, I was not born in the UK so if my child is not born there she would be stateless and unable to obtain a passport anywhere and unable to travel. This would be a sad things for any human being!

Yep,my friend lives in Spain,but goes back to use the NHS services. She was going to have her 2nd baby in the UK too,but decided against it in the end

I live in the Middle East, partly because I wanted access to safe, clean healthcare that is not rationed. It is true that most people I know go to the UK to give birth, it is really unfair. I don't pay tax or NI and have no intention of living in the UK again in the near future so why should they subsidise my healthcare when there isn't enough to go round?
Beats me why the NHS seem to so enjoy caring for the people who need it least.

maybenow, seeing as you say you hate Arab coutries and wouldn't go there anyway, be a dear and pop off to thread where your opinion matters. Lots of us do like living in Arab countries thanks dear.

i didn't say i hate them, i said I'd hate to live in one. I don't think it would suit me, doesn't mean it doesn't suit other people - but did you miss the bit entirely when i said it is often suggested to DH that he might have to do a stint in the Middle East for her career or to avoid redundancy? That is relevant, not everybody who is an "ex-pat" for a period of time is through free choice.

Warzonemummy... you know Nationality can be passed through the Father too I hardly think your child will be stateless.

May I point out that everyone who is a resident in the UK actually pays tax there, unless they are managing not to buy anything ever ? Indirect taxation is a large percentage of government revenue.

warzonemummy, that is absolute rubbish.

Agree with exexpat. Know many women who come back to give birth just to ensure children's paperwork is hassle-free, the conditions in hospitals etc. are up to standard (not always the case abroad) and that family is around to support. Don't think it's as scroungy as presented. Esp. keeping in mind you'd have to spend considerable amount just to travel back and forth from said region.

Betteronacamel, some expats only have basic medical healthcare so getting a cheap flight to the UK and staying with parents is often cheaper than paying for hospital bils in the Middle East.

If you dont live in the UK you are not entitled to use the NHS (unless you pay)

If WarZoneMummy isn't married to a British (British-born?) father of the baby he won't be able to pass on Brit nationality. The rules are quite complicated.

Warzonemummy - you need to check you DO qualify here. Thinking you should and actually doing so are different things.

I would want to travel home to Britain to give birth, were I to be living abroad and pregnant. I'm pretty sure DH and both sides of the family would take it for granted that I would do this, too. It's a vulnerable time, I'd want to be where me and my midwife etc. share a first language, because god only knows how they would make me out otherwise, when I descended into my strongest accent and total incoherency. I'd want it all to happen the way I've been brought up to expect it to happen. I'd want my/his family on hand to celebrate with and be supported by. I'd want there to be no question that my child was British. I'd want to be HERE, at home, where I feel safe. In the care of an institution in my life, an institution I trust - the NHS.

Would I consider this to be 'sponging' on the NHS? Hell, no! If we want to talk taxes, I've paid my share in my time (although I'd question that being a criteria for receiving NHS treatment, otherwise SAHMs are a bit stuffed). It's wrong for me to be excluded just because I'm temporarily out of the country at an inconvenient time. If I'd actually emigrated, that would be different, because then I would have hitched my star to another country and chosen to give up my claims to Britain. I'd still come back, but would expect to pay and would do so gladly (to the NHS rather than a private hospital - I just don't trust the profit motive to work to my advantage); but for as long as I remained British, I'd look to the NHS first.

Hmm. Do you think this is how salmon feel, fighting their way back upriver to spawn?

I am married to British that wasn't born inthe UK so baby won't qualify for nationality or elsewhere so that will make her stateless. I am paying for first class ticket to get back to the UK so money is not an issue making me travel all the way. Anyway, I read the 5years rule and so on and I think I am entitled after all.

By the way, has anyone seen all these expats coming in walking on London streets and not even paying council tax.

I just don't get it. The NHS may be free and fairly unique in that, but it doesn't mean it is better than other countries. If I was a socialist I wouldn't be living in a tax free country. We have excellent healthcare, no need to wait for anything, no MRSA etc. However, part of our package is unlimited global insurance. Therefore, if I for some reason wanted to, I could pay to giver birth in the UK It's not scrounging to still use the NHS if you live elsewhere, it's just a bit weird to want to.

But Warzonemummy, both of you therefore must have had an origional nationality? Both of you weren't born stateless I assume? Therefore you could alsways pass that on?

Some countries do not recognise dual nationality, so if you acquire another citizenship/nationality, you lose your right to a passport of your birth country. Don't know if that applies to warzonemummy, but it's a possible scenario. Some countries also don't let you transmit nationality through the mother, just the father.

And in any case, if both parents are now British, surely it makes sense to ensure that their child is born British, rather than starting life with the nationality of a country where they are never likely to live, and which would possibly cause them visa/immigration problems in the UK?

Carry on Warzonemummy, but just remember to save for your childrens healthcare because the NHS wont be around in 20 years because of people abusing it.

I have a French friend who has lived and worked here for 12 years, paying tax all that time. She went back to France to have her baby because maternity care is generally far better than what she would have got in London and she wanted to be with her family.

I'm sure plenty of other non-British citizens living and working here have done the same. As MrsTP said, swings and roundabouts.

I believe the OP. If you go in as an emergency then they must treat you regardless of your residency status. It is very difficult for the NHS to collect any amounts owed. It is also the quickest way to get UK citizenship. America has a similiar problem. For British Citizens it is hard to deny NHS care because technically you are entitled to care from when you become resident. You can be resident in the UK for 90 days before you are subject to UK taxes. I would like to see this loophole closed as it is not fair. I say this as someone who lives abroad and pays private medical fees if we need medical care in the UK.

I am here in the US and if you go into labour here they have to treat you regardless of your ability to pay and your citizenship status (Hiliary Clinton, not Obama brought this legislation in). What happens is they stabilize you and then move you to a hospital that covers medicare patients. The closest one to me is in Newark and it has a good reputation. So good infact that many with insurance opt to deliver at that hospital. The minimum stay after a vaginal birth is 48 hours and 5 days if you have a CS.

With insurance I paid $50 for my prenatal care, $50 for my CS (cost of delivery of DD) and $500 a night for the first 5 nights in hospital ($2500) which DH's employer reimbursed. Without insurance the cost would have been around $10K (billed $50K but that isn't what is due).

Funnily enough DD does have an issue with nationality. My parents were living in Canada when I was born so I am Canadian by birth and British through my father. I was educated in the UK and lived there until 2005. DD was born in the US so is not entitled to a British passport through me as I wasn't born in the UK. This isn't such a huge issue for us because DD is Danish through DH so can live in the UK with no problems. However this is a problem for 3rd generation in African countries. I have friends that consider themselves British and live in Kenya (born in Kenya, educated in the UK, consider themselves British and have returned to Kenya to run family company). If their children are born in Kenya they will no longer be British from birth unless they are born in the UK.

It is also the quickest way to get UK citizenship

?? Being born on UK territory is not enough to confer citizenship! I should know, I just had struggle to get DS1's British passport. DS was born in Nottingham & he does have a full British father with a Brit passport, but I still had to jump thru hoops.

I worked out that under American rules that had I been born in USA but moved abroad before the age of 19, then DS1 would have been born stateless. Not good!!

Some countries do not recognise dual nationality, so if you acquire another citizenship/nationality, you lose your right to a passport of your birth country.

That's if a person is naturalised, I think that most countries let a person be born as dual nationals, though. For instance, Americans demand that upon becoming a naturalised American, new citizens have to renounce all other nationalities (witness Anthony Hopkins). However I can keep my American nationality even after becoming naturalised to something else, too (?would take a constitutional amendment to change that position).

I am pregnant now and stuck in the USA with hubby's job. We still own a house back home and pay tax on it, I still pay income tax in the UK for my worldwide work (and have to pay it in the US for earnings in the US too) as I travel a great deal for work - when I am not too fat to fly... I pay voluntary NI contributions to ensure that even if I don't earn enough while I am away it will not affect my NI Status. We have been away for 18 months and although of that time 4.5 months has been spent working and residing in the UK through various trips back - I think technically I would still not be eligible. However I did consider it seriously, in the end I could not do it because I felt it was unfair to fly back to three months and come back to hubby with a baby at the end of it and there is no way the military would let him come back to sit out the wait for baby to make his appearance.

Although I feel it is wrong to abuse the system I can sympathise with people who want to come home to have a baby and truly it is not always about money. You are feeling hormonal, often scared and away from your family. Yes it is cheaper on the face of things to come home to have your baby. Depending on your choice of treatment here in the States it can be anything from $2000 to $25,000 - most people have some form of insurance and if you do usually you can get your maternity package of your choice for around $2000 possibly with the odd extra co-pay thrown in. If you think you are J-lo and want super luxury then of course it will be more - but you would not get that on the NHS either, so you can have it if you can afford it, or if your insurance will cover it. But if you fly back - you have to fly whilst you are still allowed to fly long haul, yourself and possible other family members too. That costs, then you have to stay somewhere, for a lot of people that will cost too. In all honesty when we added up how much it would have costed to come home to have the baby it was more than having it here. Much more... but I would have known what to expect and had my family close. Being relatively alone in another country is not always the best situation to be in.

The main reason I considered coming home to give birth was fear of the unknown. Maternity medicine here in the US is completely different to at home. It is MUCH more invasive, with constant monitoring, blood tests, scans, and a real lack of facilities and care that would encourage you to give birth naturally. It is ALL about intervention. What is convenient for the Dr, for the hospital etc rather than what is good for you and your baby. If a Dr can bill your insurance for a procedure (scan, blood test, epidural etc...) you will usually be told it is essential. I was told my Dr would "prefer" if I delivered before 39 weeks, but he could give no good reason for why this would be better - except thats just what they do with women my age.... (turns out he has a golfing holiday over my due date which I suspect may have had something to do with it) but of course if I am induced it is all extra procedures that my insurance company are happy to cover. When I first went to see the Dr to confirm my pregnancy and the insurance co were informed we were send a breakdown of all the procedures (and how many of them) they were happy to cover. Believe me they were plentiful and many of them the Dr wanted me to have even though in my cirsumstances they were unnecessary.

I ended up having the fear of god put into me on an almost weekly basis of what could go wrong next. I was so stressed at what I was going to be made to do and the lack of facilities for the sort of birth I wanted (hardly any births are midwife led here) I was crying all the time with super high blood pressure. Going home to where I trusted the system, and could get a level of care I wanted and was familiar with would have been fantastic, so I sympathise with wanting to go home.

As it is I am now officially too fat to fly so am waiting out the arrival of baby here in the US. Doesn't mean I would not rather be back int he UK.

So what if they live abroad?

If they are British then why shouldn't they have their children here?

Or any other health care for that matter.