To be shocked that children don't know the Lords prayer anymore

[shaka12003]

Something that came up today whilst watching the jubilee celebrations. The church service came on and the Lords prayer was said my 2 dcs don't know it and havent been taught it in school.

AIBU to be shocked by this apparently I am as we now live in a political correct society and can't teach children these things.

Also I don't see atheism rammed down people's throats to extent that Christianity is. Why is it that my children's school ask my permission for them to go on a picnic, but not to visit a church? Why is my permission not sought to teach them to pray or learn about God creating the world in 7 days? If atheists are a little piqued by the apparent stranglehold that Christianity has over children's education, I am not at all surprised. I genuinely feel quite rude about it tbh

Incidentally, no secular schools within 10 miles of where I live!! What is that about?!?

I concede that the following parties have NOT done religon a favour

spanish inquisiton/taliban/catholic paedophiles.to name a select few
and the Old Testament needs to be taken with a huge pinch of salt

However, where it can, and does support is

giving people a moral code in tough times (What Would Jesus Do!)
providing solace when people die
bring together small communities, esp the elderly
provide alot of solace when people are ill/terminally ill
give is a sense that there is a purpose and a meaning
give a sense that actually, what goes around, will come around
provide a marker from a morality POV

anyway, thats just my opinon. will post back in 10 to see if any vitroil has been poured on me

and I do NOT send my kids to faith school, in fact I dont agree with them

I agree that to sweepingly say all religion is "gobbledegook" is just offensive.

But some of religion is gobbledegook. There are people more familiar with the details than me, but there are a lot of passages out there that pass that test. And a lot of the supernatural stuff, when presented as fact, is also gobbledegook.

For me the test is whether religion is presented a cultural thing, or as fact. If the latter, then I say call a spade a spade. But it's not necessary to slag off someone's culture when they are making no grand claims about it.

Technoviking Wed 06-Jun-12 13:50:16
"Why is it a shame? What do they gain or lose from knowing or not knowing a prayer?"

In a general context, I'd say it's a shame in the same way as it would be a shame if they didn't recognise the words To be or not to be, or a reference to glass shoes and pumpkins- because it means missing out on part of our cultural heritage. If you grow up with a rich field of cultural assocations, then you have gained something.

I was not brought up in the Church of England, or indeed in England at all, so I have spent some time catching up on the Common Book of Prayers, the Oxford Book of Carols and various publications, not because I need these for religious reasons (I can pray perfectly well in my own language and in my own words), but because there is so much of literature and even everyday expressions that come from there. Oh, and the pantomimes as well- that is another rich source of everyday speech that you just don't know if you have grown up outside that culture.

Porca your list of benefits can be just as adequately provided secularly and there is nothing inherently supernatural about them. As for the old testament having to be taken with a pinch of salt?? I'm staggered by the irony! Where does it say in the bible that you can take the old testament with a pinch of salt? Does that include the 10 commandments or just the bits where god's killing babies and so on?

Even the Spanish inquisition have some good things to their credit: they did put a stop to witch trials in Spain very quickly at a time when secular authorities in Northern Europe were a driving force behind them. Many of the worst witchcraft persecution epidemics were in the Protestant countries of Northern Europe- not something I am proud of as a Protestant.

And the Spanish Church did protest about the exploitation of the native Americans in South and Central America; that is why we know so much more about the horrendous conditions there- there was no comparable body that had an interest in writing against the same thing in North America.

But obviously that does not exonerate them from the trials of heretics.

Why is it OK to express a view that someone's beliefs about (for example) child rearing are "gobbledygook" but not to express the same opinion about religious beliefs? It is, after all, only an opinion.

My DC go to a basically CofE school (although independent, so not church subsidised) and because it is the right/best school for them, I bite my tongue and am OK with them participating in religious activities at school (and occasionally as part of village life as well). However, as/when they ask (and DS already has) I will tell them that, in my opinion, the stories they are told should be regarded in the same light as Greek, Norse and other myths. To whom is that offensive, and how, exactly?

headinhands

I was not expecting anyone to agree with me! I just expressed a view

Interesting how you are so keen to disagree however, and point out sentacnes where you think I am wrong....

am I nit picking your views? NO

ha, as I am a tolerant christian, nuff said

I guess if the Lord's prayer was so important to me, I would have taken care of teaching it to my children myself. Why to get shocked at others not teaching your children the prayer when you had not even bothered to do it yourself?

Frankly...

stealth, why ON EARTH are you sending them to a faith school if you think its gobbledegook????

I dont even send my kids to faith school.....

Porca - because in a 5 mile radius of home I have the choice of 3 CofE state primaries and 1 independent with a basically CofE approach.

"but time after time I see responses that make me wince"

What you need to remember is that you are more likely to notice/remember the anti-Christian comments, as they will affect you more personally. Whereas the atheist will notice/remember the anti-Atheist comments. So while you may feel there are more anti-Christian comments, and atheist may feel there are more anti-Atheist comments. Personally I feel they are pretty evenly matched, and I say this as someone who falls into neither group.

empusa, thats true

stealth, fair enough!

..also, Porca, come to think of it, even if there were non-faith schools within reach, I think all the other aspects of a school are more important, TBH. I have no issue with people who choose to believe or to participate in organised religion, it's just that I don't.

I'm not keen to disagree I just do. As for nitpicking? Wouldn't that be picking on grammar or similar, certainly won't find me doing that as I'm the worst for it.

I found your comment about the OT very interesting because it beautifully highlights the methods Christians use to allow themselves to tolerate the chasm between OT and lovey dovey Jesus.

I dont know about the OT, I am not a priest or a theologist

all I know is I have been bought up as a christian and I have NEVER been taught that the OT is right. the main message I got really is "treat thy neighbour as thyself", maybe you just listen for what you want to hear, like what empusa said...

I sense some CofE are a bit embarassed by the OT to be honest

For those who find atheists 'rude', please at least consider WHY people sometimes get exasperated with organised religion.

Whilst there are many examples, since we're on a thread about schools, how about the fact that children of atheists are actively discriminated against in many state school admissions systems?

No religious viewpoint should have special immunity to critical thinking and analysis, no matter who's it is.

I think it is massively insulting to state that without xian values and a belief in an unseen presence people are morally valueless - it's a terrible thing that religion has hijacked morality.

But Porca think about how what you're saying actually sounds to someone outside of religion. Imagine I told you I had a book written by an omnipotent all loving god who wanted to have a personal relationship with you. Imagine I let you read the book and imagine that within those pages you read many many instances of this all loving god behaving like a blood thirsty, petty, cruel tyrant. Wouldn't that concern you? Imagine when challenged I said 'ah take no notice of those bits'.

Wouldn't the logical response be to doubt the veracity of the entire book and the claims I made about it?

on paper, I see what you are saying 100%

But at the end of the day relgion is a very personal thing, and as such peoples viewed dont get swayed that easily.

this can be a VERY BAD thing, I know....

but , its something I hold dear to my heart, and I HOPE it makes me a better person

probably not though

I left school able to chant the Lord's prayer, but could not chant my 8 times table, that is so wrong

Headinhands, gooness me, that must have been some church you went to! (Seriously, did they talk at all about the difference between resurrection and resuscitation there? So many churches don't....[shakes head sadly])

that was mean to be Goodness me, obv! (risks adding another weird Christian practice to the list....'yeah, they cover themselves in goo and run around shouting, you know...' )

I went to sunday school and also learned the Lord's prayer in school. Now, it's an irrelevance to me. It hasn't enriched me culturally, music, literature, art and sport has done that.

My problems with religion stem from being taught that the Bible is fact, even though it's contradictory. I don't believe children should be taught it all, until they are old enough to make their own minds up.