To be shocked that children don't know the Lords prayer anymore

[shaka12003]

Something that came up today whilst watching the jubilee celebrations. The church service came on and the Lords prayer was said my 2 dcs don't know it and havent been taught it in school.

AIBU to be shocked by this apparently I am as we now live in a political correct society and can't teach children these things.

Himalaya the trouble is, that with no fear of God and what happens in the afterlife, people will have no need to follow a code of conduct will they ...no spiritual belief at all seems pretty dire if you ask me.

I know many people say God isn't to be feared and I don't mean that so much....but without a place to go after death, there's nothing to stop people acting like totaly bastards in life really.

Also...the UK was traditionally a church going Christian country....if that fades but Mosques thrive, we will find the country leans more towards Muslim faith as those who DO need a faith search for a religion....and they will you know...and they will look for a religion and a place of worship that is thriving...and those will be the Mosques.

I don't think the Muslim faith is a bad faith but it has many aspects which are far worse than Christianity...

donnie that's a lack of wide reading and a lack of education, not because kids are no longer forced to pray.

Children should be learning off poetry and sections of text, because that is demonstrably beneficial (rhyming helps significantly with learning to read). I am far more concerned about the lack of that than the lack of muttering meaningless phrases to a god who may or may not be relevant in the kids' lives.

But that's not new, we didn't learn poems off when I was at school in the 80s, weren't expected to be able to recall song words etc (total bollocks, when tests have shown that children as young as 3 can have repertoires of songs in the hundreds, if they are given the opportunity and encouragement to learn them.)

/endtangent

donnie, I teach medieval studies and we regularly get students who don't want to study any texts that mention religion because it makes them uncomfortable

I can imagine the same kind of student taking up Arabic studies and refusing to learn anything about the Muslim faith because they've decided that religion shouldn't be a central part of culture

thehouse acting like a total bastard in this life tends to make life less pleasant here. If people are only "good" because of a cosmic policeman, what does that say about them?

As an atheist I manage to live a happy, fulfilled and generally not too morally suspect life. Because being kind/ nice to people is its own reward.

Understanding Christian mythology is important in understanding our culture, yes. Knowledge of the existence and wording of the Lord's Prayer as part of that? Fine.

That's very different to teaching kids to learn it off-by-heart and then regularly parrot it as if they believe it.

donnie - this is entirely off-topic, but have you come across the Faber collection of Wendy Cope poems with her foreword? She explains very sweetly (but with a bit of suppressed irritation) that when her poems were set for GCSE/A Level she had students who insisted on some fantastic wacky interpretations because they didn't know what she was parodying and she had to be 'firm' about telling them, um, no, trust me, that is not what they are about!

I wish Eng Lit students understood the concept of prayer, or the Lord's prayer, or anything much about religion and religious contexts - but I also wish that 'no-one taught it at school' wasn't an excuse for not knowing. The OP is using it that way, which makes me irritated because if she passes that attitude on to her children, they will be the ones expressing shock and surprise later on that they're ever expected to do any learning outside the classroom.

But YOU'RE one of the decent people aren't you Crunchy ...a basically good person....well brought up and all the rest of it. What about people who need guidance? Where do they get it?

'Himalaya the trouble is, that with no fear of God and what happens in the afterlife, people will have no need to follow a code of conduct will they ...no spiritual belief at all seems pretty dire if you ask me.'

Some of the best people I have met, with a moral code that is based on caring for their fellow humans have been humanists or atheists. They follow that path because they feel the alternative is unthinkable, because they measure their worth in how they treat others.
Some of the most narrow-minded and exclusive have been people of faith. Based on pleasing a higher being by their antics, so they get to be one of the chosen in the next life.

if someone decides to follow the Muslim faith, then how is that having no spiritual belief??

I think you might want to rethink that last post TheHouse as you sound much like you have an issue with the Muslim faith.

"I don't think the Muslim faith is a bad faith...." ... just KNEW that was going to be followed by something negative..... so predictable.....

cory surely in medieval texts, that'll be all of them?

Again, I am uncomfortable with religion being central to culture now but that doesn't mean I can't recognise that is was, and has been more important. I'm just hoping that as a species, we're outgrowing that particular evolutionary dead end.

I agree with that, btw, noble.

I also think it''s much easier to learn the specific text if you know the context, rather than vice versa. TBH, someone who's gleaned a rote knowledge of the Lord's Prayer but doesnt know where it comes from, what it's all about or why anyone would say it, has learned useless information.

houseonthecorner plenty of people manage to be good without god. Look at Bill Gates for example - he does enormous good with his wealth. The fact that you think that fear of hell is the only way to go about it is rather depressing.

Triggles I do have an issue with some of it....I have an issue with women in masks. ..and little girls covering up their hair....AND YES....even the ones who "chose to wear them" because they only CHOSE them because the men in their life TOLD them to.

yes, it is exactly thay crunchyfrog - a lack of reading and of education. I am not calling for praying by rote to be forced onto all children in schools but I am pointing out that a lack of knowledge and awareness of the influence of Christianity in English and European Literature is affecting children (and adults)

Even having to explain the concepts of pilgrimage and Canterbury as the medieval European capital of Christianity makes Chaucer so much more difficult - if an individual is totally ignorant to these concepts it makes grasping the wonders of literature so much less achievable.

As I said, I have become an RE teacher and history teacher to my A level classes by default. Luckily, I am pretty clever and clued up

So ... is the suggestion that all atheists (and their kids) are going to turn out as axe-wielding psychopaths and marauding robbers because they aren't properly frightened into behaving well by a decent religious education? Says a lot for Christians really ...

I don't think the Lord's Prayer should be taught in schools unless in a comparative context e.g. children also ought to know about prayers and similar forms of dedication/worship from the other major religions (not to mention humanist bodies).

noble I don't think fear of hell is the right way and I don't even believe in hell....I do think people need something to lean on and to turn to in life.

Covering the face isn't an Islamic thing - it's a cultural thing. No where in Islam does it say to cover that much and Hijab rules apply equally to both men and women.

Whereas women covering their bodies as nuns and never undressing and shutting themselves off from the world is just great..

TheHouseOnTheCorner Wed 06-Jun-12 09:08:25
"But YOU'RE one of the decent people aren't you Crunchy ...a basically good person....well brought up and all the rest of it. What about people who need guidance? Where do they get it?"

I grew up in Sweden where very few people were practising Christians. (I converted at a young age but that was a very personal thing.) They didn't seem that different, really, as to morality or general standards. They got those from society, from people around them, from a general recognition that good is worth doing for its own sake.

But YOU'RE one of the decent people aren't you Crunchy ...a basically good person....well brought up and all the rest of it. What about people who need guidance? Where do they get it?

Through fear of a vengeful God?

Nothing like a bit of fear to motivate hey?

Um, TheHouseOnTheCorner, did you mean to sound so utterly insulting to people who don't believe in the Christian god? I am Jewish. We don't have an afterlife. We are taught that living a good and moral life is it's own reward, as indeed it is. I don't believe in god. But I am a very moral person. Do you really think so little of people that you think fear in repercussions is all that keeps us from evil?

House, you said with no fear of god and what happens in the afterlife, people have no need to follow a code of conduct. Why did you say that if you don't think scaring people into being good is the way to go?

People need something to lean on and turn to? So basically religion is a crutch? Why can't other people be our support?

Atheism doesn't inexorably lead to an existential void of depression. The world is still full of wonder.

No cook I said I don't believe in hell and nor do I think fear of a vengeful God is right...I just think SOME faith is good.

'What about people who need guidance? Where do they get it?'

From the people around them that treat them with consideration and respect. If it isn't their family, it might be at school or in the workplace or just good friends.