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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to ask if you smack your children?

644 replies

toofattorun · 23/05/2012 22:53

I am not talking beating! Just a smack on the hand or bum when they are being very rude or naughty.

OP posts:
larrygrylls · 25/05/2012 10:05

Cailin,

Teachers should never smack. If you are a teacher, I am sure you know that a teacher/child relationship is completely different to a parent/child relationship. It is interesting that although most of the nursery teachers at our son's small pre-school nursery are theoretically anti smacking, most will admit having smacked their own children at some point or another and will admit that, at the time, they felt it was the most effective thing to do (although they then say they feel it was a failure of good parenting).

I think the difference is that, as a parent, you know your child so well and can focus on them so much that you KNOW whether what they are doing is naughtiness or something else. As a teacher, I think you would have to, on some level, guess. You cannot know what every child in your class is thinking.

From my memory of being a child, the only smacks I really remember and still resent are the ones where I was accidentally naughty because I did not understand what was wanted of me. The ones I was given where I just pushed and pushed until I got my smack were cathartic. I knew my mother (and it was mainly her, my father tended to smack when he lost his temper, which was rare and never right, so I never pushed him) cared enough to draw the boundary that I was actively asking her to draw. I was bright enough to not get smacked after about 4 or 5 as I worked out that I was always going to lose the battle. So, to those who say that you have to keep smacking, you don't. The lesson is learned.

To be honest, I think my wife and I smack ineffectively, in that our smacks are really not much of a deterrent. However, I find that "time outs" are next to useless. I get a chorus of "can I come in Daddy" for 3 minutes (he is 3) followed by a quick apology and then the behaviour is repeated within 24 hours. And I cannot bring myself to label my child naughty and use a naughty step (and I do think that is what a naughty step implies). I think that is possibly the worst punishment as once a child thinks of himself as naughty, it is hard to turn it around. Positive reinforcement does work, albeit terribly slowly. I think all good parenting revolves around effective communication and modelling behaviour. However, boundaries do have to be drawn and a smack is one way of drawing them. For those who say why do it if there are better alternatives, it is because I am not convinced the other alternatives are better, it is one tool of many within a parenting toolkit and sometimes the most effective. For example, trying to keep a 3 year old out while his 18 month old brother is at the other end of the room throwing soil out of a plant pot is not feasible. It is clearly not an option for those people who have a temper and where a smack can end up causing more than a few seconds of pain.

CharlieUniformNovemberTango · 25/05/2012 10:08

I've never needed to smack and never really agreed with it.

It happened this morning out of pure frustration on my part and I feel awful for it.

It was just a collection of little things building up tbh. Mostly I can see reasons behind what he's done and he's by no means a naughty child. Just destructive today it seems. Normally I would explain why we don't do something and just repeat it 2 or 3 times and that mostly works.

It's often silly things like pushing all the books off the shelf etc.

Today he has been wandering from room to room emptying Hal packed boxes, tipping the clean washin onto the floor, emptying out my purse and hiding my cards. That sort of thing. The last straw was emptying the brand new bottle of shampoo over his breakfast. He's done this before into the bath etc but it's such a ware at a time when money is very tight.

I know why. Most of his toys are packed. The house is upside down and he's bored and unsure of what's happening to all our stuff. But he's getting up at 5 am when I'm still struggling to sleep at 2. If I take him out I'm behind with the packing etc and too tired to do it all come evening anyway. It's my problems that have led to this. I'm just sad I did it. It was hard and has marked and he has said several times since that mummy hurt his leg and he has a baddy.

I don't need to work on his behaviour. I need to work on mine.

summerintherosegarden · 25/05/2012 11:33

Cailin I think a teacher smacking is very different to a grandparent smacking (also in the eyes of the law). Presumably a teacher would smack in a public setting which would be very humiliating to the child. A teacher does not love the child the way a parent/grandparent does so might not hold back either.

I've never been a teacher but I'm sure there are circumstances in which the teachers wish they could smack the kids and there are probably circumstances in which the kids deserved it (my friend who teaches at a fairly 'rough' school has been spat at, threatened with a knife, the list goes on...she has had to restrain children physically but that's probably a bad example as the problems those kids have run much deeper than anything a smack could 'solve')

Charlie please don't beat yourself up over this. IIRC you're having other, very difficult problems right now and it is entirely natural that things are getting on top of you. I'm sure you've already explained to your son that you're very tired and sad at the moment and got overwhelmed and are very sorry and all these things... the mark will fade quickly and he will most likely either forget it ever happened or look back and completely understand why it did.

MooBaaWoofCheep · 25/05/2012 11:36

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

yummymummy84 · 25/05/2012 13:07

Yes once or twice when DD did something very dangerous but wasn't happy doing it and always explained why she had been smacked. Didn't do me any harm as a child! I always try to take toys away instead etc.

startail · 25/05/2012 14:10

Sparklingboots I don't want to meet your child, sorry, but how do you enforce boundaries without wanting to " control" your child.?

CailinDana · 25/05/2012 14:19

I just find it a bit odd that a teacher, who is trying to control 30 children and just doesn't have time to reason with every child, isn't allowed to smack but is expected to use other methods, while a parent who has only 1/2/3 children, has time to talk to, get to know and reason with the child, and build up tailor-made personal ways of disciplining that suit the child, is allowed to smack. Because they love the child. It just isn't logical.

Larry I absolutely loathe the word "naughty". I think describing a child in any sort of negative way is horrible and I would never do it. I would never use the term "naughty step" - I would only use the term Time Out and in that case it doesn't involve shutting the child away for ages it involves removing them from the situation and calming them down. Time Out is effective but not with every child.

At age 3, IMO, you just have to be on the ball with a child. Rigid discipline isn't really going to work at that age. Time Out will be effective for some 3 year olds but not many in my experience. For the most part 3 year olds just push and push the boundaries and as a parent you have to be on hand to guide them, a lot. That's very hard work, and I can see how people are pushed to smack now and again but as a discipline method smacking is just pointless. It stops the situation at the time but doesn't teach anything other than to keep out of mummy/daddy's way. It is beneficial only for the parent in that it is quick and easy. 3 year olds need constant teaching, and will often get things wrong, but that's just due to their age, not due to some ridiculous idea of being "naughty."

The parent is responsible for what goes on in a small child's life and blaming a child for "pushing" the parent into violence is disgusting IMO.

noobydoo · 25/05/2012 14:22

exotic - I don't know why it us you keep on using the argument "I wouldn't hit an adult so why a child?" Are you really saying that your relationship with your child is equal in every way - ask me why I wouldn't smack an adult and I would say because an adult is my equal and I have no rights/responsibilities for any adult other than myself. That is the same reason why I can't tell another adult what to do with their lives. However, I do have a responsibility to my children to bring them up as responsible citizens.

Personally, I feel far too many parents shy away from discipline of any kind nowadays because they think children are their equals and this is clearly wrong, however this is what you always imply time and time again. To treat a child as a mini adult confers far too much responsibility on them in a world they are clearly incapable of comprehending properly.

Using any form of discipline effectively is a way of showing your children that in life when you do things that are disappointing/hurtful to others there are consequences. If I was to go and hit another adult, they might not hit me back but I would be prosecuted by the police; same thing if I went and broke someone's window.

Once one likens smacking to abuse the plot is lost. There are loads of children I know who have been smacked and I can honestly say that none of them are emotionally scarred - in fact, they seem to be the happiest children I know. When studies have been done that show smacking is not effective, have they looked at it in the context of a smack on the back of the hand, once in a while by a loving parent or are they looking at it from the perspective of abuse? I would love to see these articles.

babybarrister · 25/05/2012 14:25

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

summerintherosegarden · 25/05/2012 14:31

That's a very fair point re teachers, but teachers can

a) look at the clock and think "well, only two hours to go" - a parent is never off duty
b) send the child out of the classroom/to the headteacher
c) suspend the child if they are being really badly behaved

Smacking also often seems to be used in dangerous situations, which are far rarer in a school setting than outside.

All that said - I completely agree with what you say about 3 year olds (who wouldn't typically be with a teacher anyway) and I feel that smacking is a more appropriate punishment for an older child who can comprehend a warning from a parent (in addition to other methods of discipline - time outs etc), carries on regardless and sees that the smack is a consequence.

I should add - as I said upthread, I've never smacked a child, and hope I never do, but I do fully understand there are situations when a parent is really at the end of their tether and I have more been reflecting on my own upbringing than anything else.

BettySwollocksandaCrustyRack · 25/05/2012 14:39

I have smacked DS on the odd ocassion, mainly for doing something dangerous and to be honest it was a knee jerk reaction because he frightened me and it was an instant reaction, not something premeditated.

My dad used to give me some right belters when I was a kid, looking back on it he obviously lost control.

I dont believe smacking works, I try and find other ways to deal with stuff, confisating wii time usually works the best. If I was to smack DS I reckon he would smack me back.....and rightly so...and how could I then tell him it was wrong.

Mind you, saying that, I am as guilty as the next person who sees a really badly behaved kid and think that they really need a good clip round the ear Confused

Pezzer · 25/05/2012 14:54

I was smacked as a child, rarely happened and I knew I was truly wrong or bad if it happened - it was never a first scold but the end of an escalation process especially if something was dangerous and I hope not to need to do so but wouldn't hesitate if I felt it necessary, not out of anger and not hard, its the startling effect to stop something - hopefully won't come to that. (And not to a baby I might add but to a toddler that knows when you're saying no but "chooses" (in the loosest meaning) to ignore). I don't believe that every child can be rationally reasoned with at all times.

blackcurrants · 25/05/2012 15:12

I think my attitude towards smacking stems from the fact that our children are vulnerable and under our care.

Please note I didn't say "always right" or "precious little angels" or anything like that. I said vulnerable, and under our care.

Before you dismiss the 'wouldn't hit an adult, so won't hit a child' analogy, it can be useful to extend it. Would it be ok for a care home worker to smack an elderly person who was 'playing up' and wouldn't take their medicine? Or who, in a fit of temper, threw their things around?
No? Okay, would it be okay for me to smack my elderly mother, who was under my care, for the same reasons? I mean, I'm not a paid employee, she's my mother. Can I smack her?

What about people who care for disabled adults? Can they smack them? If not the paid people, what about the parents/siblings of disabled adults? Can they smack them, if they're really misbehaving?

Surely one would think not. One reads about carers smacking elderly or disabled adults and is horrified. They are vulnerable, perhaps not able to control their faculties, bowels, or emotions - and they are under our protection.

But we rationalize it as fine when it's children.

CailinDana · 25/05/2012 15:14

Well put blackcurrants. The fact that someone can't be reasoned with is not a good excuse to hit them. Plenty of people are not reasonable for various reasons and they shouldn't be subjected to violence because of that. Being hit is just as humiliating and upsetting for a child as it is for an adult. More so, in some ways, because the person hitting them is also responsible for their care.

Hullygully · 25/05/2012 15:20

oh demn good point

larrygrylls · 25/05/2012 15:31

Cailin,

"At age 3, IMO, you just have to be on the ball with a child. Rigid discipline isn't really going to work at that age. Time Out will be effective for some 3 year olds but not many in my experience. For the most part 3 year olds just push and push the boundaries and as a parent you have to be on hand to guide them, a lot. That's very hard work, and I can see how people are pushed to smack now and again but as a discipline method smacking is just pointless. It stops the situation at the time but doesn't teach anything other than to keep out of mummy/daddy's way. It is beneficial only for the parent in that it is quick and easy. 3 year olds need constant teaching, and will often get things wrong, but that's just due to their age, not due to some ridiculous idea of being "naughty." "

I find the above really interesting and am not sure I entirely agree. At least, can you clarify? I am convinced that 3 year olds actively enjoy being naughty at least some of the time. For example, I have explained to my highly verbal 2.11 year old (speaking age 4/5 according to his nursery) that he must not take soil out of the plant pot as the plant needs it for food and also that I have to sweep it up and that is not what I enjoy doing. He will then, once every few days, giggle hysterically, tell me that he is going to the plant pot, take a handful of soil, look at me pointedly and throw it on the floor. This is despite being warned, en route, and at every point, that there will be a consequence if he does remove the soil. What is he doing unless he is exploring my setting of the boundaries to his behaviour? I would never classify a child as naughty, as I totally agree with everything you say about that. However, I would describe certain behaviours as naughty, and deserving of some form of consequence/punishment.

Curious as to your opinion as you seem to have some expertise in the area?

PandaWatch · 25/05/2012 15:32

That's an excellent analogy blackcurrents.

I was never smacked as a child but I can vividly remember being at a friend's house when I was about 10. I can't even remember what my friend did wrong but her dad came upstairs and chased her into her room to smack her, shutting the door on me while I stood in the hallway. Before he shut the door I saw her on her bed, pressed up against the wall with her hand up in a really defensive gesture. I assume it was "just" a smack as we were back to playing soon after but it made me feel sick to see her so scared and defenceless and even at that age I think I lost all respect for her dad. I could never imagine doing something to make a child feel like that.

AGiraffeUnderTheFloorBoards · 25/05/2012 15:39

I have smacked maybe 3 or 4 times and each time I've felt it has been a total failing on my part and not because of DS's behaviour. I think smacking is wrong and have two good friends, loving mothers, who see smacking as a necessary part of parenting which I think is wrong ...yet I've smacked - a leg, a hand and an upper arm.

Each time, I believe if I'd had more sleep, more time, felt less stress then it wouldn't have happened - so therefore not my DS's behaviour but my inability to deal with it. It's always been a frustrated response to a build up of lots of things and retrospectively it's always obvious to me to that I handled it all badly.

I hate myself for it and feel ashamed. It's wrong. I'm much calmer now DD is older and is getting more sleep but I hate that my gorgeous DS had a crap grumpy mother who smacked him. I'm impressed by the mums on this thread who have never done it - I wish I'd been more like you and stayed calm on those occasions.

Worst of all, I was reminded me of the kind of thing you hear about domestic violence... you know "your behaviour made me do it" / " you were annoying me, I was drunk / you asked for it". I realised by saying my DS had behaved badly put me in the same camp and I wasn't taking responsibility for my actions.

I was completely wrong - there just isn't an excuse.

Hullygully · 25/05/2012 15:40

What I would do, Laz, is move the plant.

Dropdeadfred · 25/05/2012 15:50

Yep remove the plant and if he asks tell him why

WhosPickleisThatOnion · 25/05/2012 15:54

Hi larry. Have you smacked for the plant thing? If so wondering why they are still doing it? If its so effective?

larrygrylls · 25/05/2012 15:56

Firstly, it is a large plant which I have had for about 20 years and is not easily moveable (possible with a couple of big guys, yes, but easy, no). Secondly I profoundly disagree with organising the world to fit in with toddlers' behaviour. They need to fit into the adult world and not vice versa. If a child smashes your kitchen crockery, does the whole family then eat off paper or plastic?

I was not asking for advice in how to deal with the situation (though slightly more profound advice would be received positively), I can manage fine. I was curious as to how those with professional experience of toddler behaviour would explain it.

TiggyD · 25/05/2012 16:10

Not since I got the Taser.

WhosPickleisThatOnion · 25/05/2012 16:11

I made some changes to my house, and moved a plant. Makes it safer and generally more enjoyable for all. Bit extreme, re crockery.

CailinDana · 25/05/2012 16:13

Larry IMO he is definitely doing it deliberately, in order to interact with you. He enjoys your response to it because you're his dad and having your attention, even if you're annoyed, is the best thing in the world. You're his god. He isn't developed enough yet to realise that you really are genuinely annoyed and that he is pissing you off - he just can't see it that way, all he sees is, I say I'm going to mess with the plant, dad is suddenly hugely interested in me and follows me/talks to me/ has a funny reaction. IME toddlers often find irate adults very funny, which is bloody infuriating! Their little world revolves around them, they don't really have the foresight or insight to understand that they're being very disruptive.

If I were you, I would give your son attention surrounding the plant but you initiate it and you teach him the correct behaviour. Obviously the plant has an attraction for him so turn it into a positive thing. Talk about the plant, let him water it, let him stroke the leaves. Any incorrect behaviour, correct him and if he doesn't listen, remove him from the area and stop interacting with him. If he looks for your interaction again say "Yes, we'll play with the plant but only if you listen to daddy." And keep reinforcing that. If at other times when you don't have time to interact with him, warn him once and once only then move him away from the plant with a firm word not to do it. Don't interact further wrt the plant, distract him with something else. If he persists then move him out of the room completely. If he learns that misbehaving around the plant = daddy doesn't interact with me then he'll soon lose interest. But if you could turn the plant into a positive thing (seeing as he himself has chosen it and so it's "his" thing) then that would be great. Perhaps then you could move on to planting your own seeds (cress for example) and watching them grow together. That would be lovely.