To insist my dd studies in addition to her schoolwork?

[ChopstheScarletduck]

DD clearly thinks I am. We've had this discussion a few times now. Apparently NOBODY else has to do extra work.

She is a solidly average student in general, but lacks motivation in subjects she does find harder, and has terrible organisational skills.

All the kids have been told they must do half an hours reading a day, from school age. The older two do maths and english in addition to that, so around an hour a day (age 11, 9)

I've now told dd I want her to do 90mins a day, which includes homework, reading and study. In the past I've even told her she can do music practice as part of that, but that didn't last very long. I help her with the aspects of her study she is struggling with, though on the whole it is independent study.

She seems to think she should be able rush her homework then hang out with her friends or sit in front of a screen all day, like everybody else does. I want her to work to achieve the grades I know she is capable of if she tries. Her homework is 100% better when she knows she can't get away with just rushing it, as she will just have to find something else to study in any case!

I know academic achievement isn't everything, and she has plenty of time left to do what she wants, and she does various clubs at school, Girls Brigade, a couple of youth clubs.

Please tell me I'm not really the only one who wants their dc to do a little work as well as play!

I've been following this with interest. I think the OP has been deliberately misread and unfairly maligned. It seems any time you demand anything of your children other than to be "happy" then you're inevitably patronised with "I feel sorry for your children".

However, OP, though your heart is in the right place, I do have a couple of suggestions for possible change: First of all, as many posters have said, I absolutely think reading must be seen as a joy and a pleasure, NOT as part of a homework/study bundle. On this you must back off, but leave her time to read last thing at night perhaps, or first thing after school when she needs a little down time. Take her to a book shop regularly and let her choose a book as a treat.

Secondly, I wonder if the whole timed nature of this homework/study is counterproductive? I have no problem at all with the length of time (90 minutes-2 hours was about standard where I grew up and I had time for competitive swimming and music activities too). But would it perhaps be more constructive to think of completing projects (such as daily homework, subject study etc) rather than sitting her down with a stopwatch? Also, I think you need to get her involved with the planning and organising this - talk to her and get her on side.

Thirdly, I'm curious about the music. Has she left off entirely, or does she not practise regularly? I really think you might want to look at that again. Music is not only a wonderful thing because of, well ... the music. It's also a fantastic discipline, an accomplishment leading to good self-esteem, and a terrific social outlet should she join an ensemble (choir, orchestra, band etc). Studies have shown again and again a correlation between musicianship and academic achievement, that they enable each other to flourish. I believe music is one of the most enriching and lovely things you can give a child.

Flatpackhamster, did you not read my post earlier on?
Clearly not.
Firstly, my elder 2 are not genius by any stretch of the imagination but to put that in such a sneery way is actually quite nasty.

Secondly my youngest dc, as I have already stated is not as academic as the other 2 and will more than likely not gain a place at the selective school. He is more a creative child and as I said before, I choose not to push him and spend the next 3 years tutoring him to pass a test and get him into a school where he will not be at all happy.

I don't know what this chattering yummy mummy thing is about, clearly you have some kind of issue but yes I have been in the ops position as you would know if you read my responses, like I said my ds2 is an average student who would rather sing than study.

However I prefer not to put immense pressure on him to get into a "good school" and to encourage his other talents.

He is a wonderful, funny, creative child with lots of friends and lots of activities, if I chose to go down your route of making him learn he would be at my dining table for the next 3 years training to pass a test and miserable.

You'd prefer that??

I could but choose not to as it is not in his best interest at the moment, he will go to the state secondary hopefully which is an arts college.

The point about down time is to reiterate the point that it is beyond me why parents are happy to schedule every minute of their DCs days into educational pursuits but feel its fine not to do the same.
And I also work full time and do all the household jobs so do a lot of parents so probably no need to state that.
Would you like to work all day, do all the housework and then be told you must spend the little time you have doing what someone else considers worthy?
It's ok for DCs to have that though. Clearly they don't need any free time.

Free time is for thinking, playing, exploring, using your imagination... not being made to do yet more school work IMO. I think Fanjo has it spot on.

I wish my parents had done this with me and I think she'll thank you for it in the future. You're helping her keep her options open, if you fall behind in something like Math you struggle to ever catch up.

The DCs that can't cope at university are the ones who have had every moment organised by the parent. You can't live their life for them. You need to create a home that is going to encourage them to want to do things. My question about making comics and newspaper articles was never answered.
If it came from them and they set about it all by themselves, it was wonderful but I still don't know why it was we - I have know DCs do it for the joy of it- themselves. If they were doing it because you wanted them to do it, then I don't think it wonderful.
The best thing is for them to see you, and their father, reading for pleasure and having your own hobbies and interests.
If they are not academic find their strengths and encourage them.
As adults we would hate to work hard all day, get home and have someone say that we should do more of the same for 90 mins because 'it is good for us'. DCs are no different.
If she is year 6 she is capable of ring let loose in the kitchen, by herself,to cook- it would be fun and she would learn at the as e time. Sit down and play chess with her. Think outside the box- there are 101 things that you could do.

Sorry-being not ring.

I think the real issue here is the lack of motivation. Until you find out what is causing that there is no magic number of minutes that will help (and doing that will actually do harm).

A motivated child will be creative or focused, live in the moment and you will see the joy of engagement in her. You won't hear stuff about Bugattis somewhere in the future either. The here and now will be the focus of the motivated child and it will be enough for him or her. A child who is not engaged in the here and now, one who says what his or her parents appear to want him or her to say (about cars they will own or a career they will follow in the future) or who is showing her lack of enthusiasm for the here and now in other ways can't be helped by piling on more work or reminders that Chinese or Indian children are going to get ahead or promises of jam tomorrow.

I would be just as worried about the boys here as about the girls. There is a tremendous amount of anxiety evident in the OP's posts and it is colouring what is actually quite a negative feature in a rosy hue.

You all need to get real and engage with the here and now. The DCs all need regular chores, not just the odd helping out here and there. There is much intellectual and emotional stimulation to be found in organising your chores and getting them done.

Crafts such as knitting or needlecraft are often appealing to girls your DD's age and they are very good for the brain too in their own way. Habits like finishing a project that you start are very positive, and a child will see even in knitting a simple hat that following the instructions and persevering will result in a product to be proud of. Cooking is another activity that will yield tangible results and give practice at all sorts of project skills.

YABU. Plenty of time for study in secondary school. Let the poor girl relax, now the Sats are out of the way.

The comics was them, ds1 and dt1. The newspaper was my idea. Convo went like this - Dt2 had been reading about boxing, and said he wanted to write a story based on it, I said, yeah, why not make it into a newspaper article? He said, yeah that would be good, I'm going to make three columns and do one each day, and I'm going do pictures, and so on... My only other input was name suggestions which he rejected in favour of his own - perfectly independent!

I don't organise every minute of their study for them. I try to get a balance between independence and teaching. When they need help I will give it. They aren't being forcd to do it everyday, generally they accept it as part of routine and enjoy it. I'm not making them miserable.

I Really do think the veyron thing is being over thought. Two small boys that love fast cars. They read a lot about them, they asked to go to the motor musuem for their birthday, and they want veyrons when they grow up, because they tell me it is the fastest car. They also want to buy mummy a Aston Martin and daddy a Ferrari. We said, yeah you will need a lot of money for that, which is how the city banker thing came about, a joke really, but for now they have latched on to it. I doubt ds1 will stick with wanting to work with wheelchairs neither, but the important thing is they realise that it is important to work hard to keep choices open in the future.

They do all do housework too, just as and when required rather than regular jobs. The can all use a washing machine, change bedding, empty dishwasher, helpwith cooking, vacuum, polish, etc. we do gardening, we have a vegetable patch, and they have three rabbits to take care of. They all started from a young age, and I think 10-20 minutes or so is plenty of help when there is 6 people in this house all doing the chores. It doesn't get that messy and since everyone mucks in we don't really need a rota or regular chores.

We ahve tried sewing, knitting, art, crafts, she isn't interested. I would like her to resume the music thing. She is keen to join the girls brigade band, I might let her do that once ds1 is old enough to join too, if he even wants to do it. Before, she simply didn't put in the practice and didn't really progress at all. She preferred to read rather than practice.

Sounds much better then It was the 'we are.......' which made me think that you were the director.
It doesn't sound as if she is going to do much with music.
I think that you just need to relax a bit and leave her space.

Are you sure she is year 6? If she's 12 in June she should be year 7. And I'm not just being pedantic, I think this makes a difference. Fir a year 7 you are not being unreasonable ( anthough it is quite a lot) but for year 6 it's ridiculous.

For not fir!

Year 7. I made a mistake somewhere, first year of high school.

When my DCs were near the end of year 7 their homework alone was 90 minutes, there would have been no need for another 90 minutes on top!

Is she not getting a lot of homework then chops?

Not not at all, and what she was getting she was rushing. It isn't 90 mins on top of homework, it's 90 mins to do homework, reading and study.

Her homework is so much better since she isn't rushing it, she takes more pride in it. She was glowing yesterday over a piece she has produced. It really helps her self esteem, which has suffered a knock with the poor results at school.

I understand the rushing thing, ds2 was the same.

I just think that it's their homework and they have to learn to manage their own time, and effort.

My ds1 got swamped with homework and poor results, but it taught him how to manage his time effectively, he is very organized now.

IMHO near the end of yr 7, she should be working independently, she will have to at some point.
I know you want to help her reach her potential but you can't always be there to check homework, supervise how long it takes etc.

These are things she needs to do herself.

I think it's the whole way of thinking, telling her that "you have now got to spend x no of minutes reading" rather than "this is a really good read, I think it's the sort of thing you'd enjoy".

I could go off chocolate if it was fed to me like that.

I see so many students who have clearly been diligent and studious all their lives but who flounder at university because they have only ever read on prescription.

They arrive with good A-levels and take their reading list bravely like a medicine, but they haven't got the spark. Some of them quite frankly shouldn't be doing this kind of degree: they haven't got what it takes, they are not enjoying themselves and they end up with grades that are not going to help much in their future career.

This is not about denying an underachieving child help, of course you mustn't do that. I'm just wondering if it would be better to approach it in a different manner: to focus the structured studying on homework, then try to sell reading as a pleasurable activity and maybe try to explore other interests that may be helpful to this particular child in the future. She is so young, she has masses of time to learn to study hard.

I agree Cory.

I disagree that 'the important thing is they realise that it is important to work hard to keep choices open in the future' . This is your anxiety speaking, OP. It's enough to thank them for their generous thought about buying dear old mum and dad a jalopy each. If you put it as bluntly as that you throw them head first into more reality than the average 7 year old (and even 11 year old) can handle.

I think it's better to just subtly talk up the skills you know are going to get them to the opportunities without mentioning the far distant future, encourage short term effort on a daily basis, make it all a positive experience, acknowledge the different things they are good at, pick up the different ways they learn and make sure they get plenty of exposure to whatever it is that they can be most engaged with. The trick is to make the mountain into a molehill.

She is keen to join the girls brigade band, I might let her do that once ds1 is old enough to join too, if he even wants to do it. Before, she simply didn't put in the practice and didn't really progress at all. She preferred to read rather than practice."

Hang on. I'm really sorry to be picky, op, but you want her to pick up her music, she wants to join a band- and you might let her when her brother is old enough to go too???? What's that about?

So does she just have to hope that her brother wants to join or her chances are nil?

It's in the next town, Friday evening. With four kids, I already do a fair bit of running around, ferrying them about. Friday is normally the one day when I tell the kids, no play dates, end of the week, a bit of family time. Every other evening at least one of them is off out somewhere. Even at weekends, ds1 has respite club, they have church once a month, the boys sometimes have stuff with scouts, or dd wants driving to town to go out with her friends. It's pretty hectic.

It's not so much that I will do it for ds1, it's that if both of them really want to do it, I think I will have to.

Bloody hell your life sounds stressful! I'd let her watch telly all evening faced with that lot. Don't make life harder for yourself!

'I'm not trying to force her to stretch beyond what she is able to do, I'm trying to get her to do what she is perfectly capable of.'
You want her to do the 90 minutes of study that she isn't interested in, but you won't extend yourself for something she wants to do, in a group setting that would increase the chance of her practicing responsibly and that would be beneficial to her as an intellectual pursuit, unless one of her brothers also wants to join too.

You keep on saying you want to see her motivated and that you understand that if she only does it to please you it's only half the battle won. But the bottom line here seems to be that she will do what you want her to do when you want her to do it, and she will have her enthusiasm for the things she wants to do met with a bucket of cold water. She reads, but it's not enough for you. She wants to do the band thing but it's inconvenient for you; it is inconvenient for you until one of the brothers wants to do it, that is. I am getting a whiff of this girl being unable to win for losing.

I am wondering if you are accepting her the way she is or trying to mould her into one of her brothers. I think the teachers and professionals (what professionals are we talking about here btw?) have suggested this to you:
'The boys all are more interested in learning, dd never really has been. It has nothing to do with their parentage. Dd and ds1 have the same father, I don't have to push ds1 at all. He may not have the same wild ambitions as the boys, but he is motivated to learn, which is all I want. All four are wildly different - it has been observed by child professionals and teachers.'

And she is not you either:
'I think that is the general consensus with a few people on this thread, and really I think this is what I wanted from the start, for them to develop a love of learning. As a child I loved reading, would read for hours without it solely having to be part of a routine (though we were always told to read before bedtime). I need to find a way for her to enjoy learning for learning's sake and get rid of some of the formality.'

Throughout this thread the way your have described your DD is by focusing on the ways she differs from her brothers. It is very clear that the boys are the golden haired children here. What is your DD like as a person?
'The boys all are more interested in learning, dd never really has been'...
Another thing that strikes me as a possibility here is that she is being treated as a second class citizen by dint of the fact that she isn't 'one of the boys'. Nothing will dent the confidence of a girl or affect her motivation like having brothers out of whose bottoms the sun shines.

'somebody else also suggested looking into careers involving travel, it is a very good idea. I agree, it doesn't have to be a 'naice' job, jsut what will make her happy and pay the bills'
Are you really going to do this and if yes, how much research are you going to do? If you are serious about approaching the issue of motivation, then surely what you need to do is plant the seed and let her take it from there? She seems well able to research things that interest her (if in fact she really is interested in history and research on places she travels to). She needs to do this for herself. You need to back off if she doesn't seem interested enough. Eleven is still quite young to be thinking into the future and mapping out a child's life for her at that age is placing a burden on her. She is just embarking on finding out who she is at this age and it is too much to start now on who she will be ten years down the road.

(BTW, and this is completely an aside, I am more than a little perturbed at the idea that the children find visiting concentration camps enjoyable or fascinating. Maybe that's not the impression you wanted to convey? Exposure to a horror like that is probably not a good idea for children so young. They cannot possibly hope to comprehend it or deal with it on an emotional level).