to think a biological child is not a right

[Aribura]

and the NHS should not fund IVF in favour of vital medications for already existing people e.g. cancer drugs being funded?

I'm feeling masochistic this evening and am looking forward to munching on some biscuits and getting my ass handed to me.

funny, I imagine saragj sitting in front of a computer in his/her pants waiting for mum to come up and read a bed-time story before bed. That's the image the posts throw up in my mind.

really ? I was thinking more 19 year old eco-warrior at college.

YABU. Infertility can be treated and illnesses can cause infertility. Also there is the cost to mental health. I have never been through infertility although it took well over a year with our youngest. I have been through miscarriages and stillbirths though so have felt the desperate need to have a baby. My DC are the best thing in my life and to deny that to someone desperate seems cruel. Of course adoption and fostoring is a good option too but not always straightforward. Either way I think IVF should be avaliable on NHS.

I used to be a little bit like saragj. Just a little bit. I seem to remember opining piously about all the effort and resources put into the infertility industry, compared to the lack of investment in counselling to help women come to terms with childlessness. I was about 23.

Miraculously, I emerged without a smack in the chops. I was obviously surrounded by women a lot more patient and compassionate than I think I can be.

Ha ha ha @ edless. Too funny.

Anyway if you lot think this thread is bad you should have seen the one on nuthunz.

Shockingly vile. Plus the adoption thing was even worse. Apparently there are thousands orphans waiting for mummies. Ivf also keeps children in care . Ffs

To echo a few other posters on this thread, adoption is not an option for everyone. Most couples will not have the reserves of empathy, compassion, tolerance, patience and stubbornness to make it work. You have to be emotionally ready to let go of the fact that you can't conceive. We were sort of fortunate that our path through the process was delayed a year to give us more time to come to terms with this.

Yes, the choice to adopt IS second best, at least in our case. We would never had adopted if we had a birth child. Our child is first best! We know now that there is no way we could love a birth child more than we love our little man. The process was fraught with difficulty and the first year was extremely challenging and traumatic but we are now the happy family we always wanted to be.

I can't stress enough that adoption isn't for everyone. It is NOT an "easy option". Children in care are there for a reason and repairing the damage takes a lifetime.

As long as abortions are paid for by the NHS so should IVF. Why is that that some women can have multiple abortions paid for by stating having a baby would cause them emotional stress and upset whilst a women stating the same for wanting a baby is denied!

I understand the reasons for abortions are varied and do believe it is the womans choice it is just the fact that there is never the same hype over the number of abortions carried out each year compared to IVF. I would love to know how much per year was spent on abortions compared to IVF and how much each abortion cost compared to each IVF.

As another poster said if it wasn't for abortions being legalised there would be more young children for adoption which may attract more adopters not that it detered me as I adopted my dudeypants when he was 2 and will be doing it all again next year for a 2 year old! (No sleepless nights for me or teething thank you!)

We're with you Dudeypantsmum. We soooooo didn't miss teething or night feeds and my wife soooooo didn't miss being pregnant. Adopting let us miss the bad bits and jump in right when the kid started to get interesting! :)

Anyone who fancies a rant on the DM's comments section can do so here!

"As long as abortions are paid for by the NHS so should IVF.

Sorry, but no fucking way.

I support IVF being available on the NHS but I absolutely reject any attempt to tie it to the availability of abortion.

Whether a biological child is a right or not, access to safe abortion IS a hard-won right for women in this country, and that should be defended regardless of whether IVF is available.

"As another poster said if it wasn't for abortions being legalised there would be more young children for adoption which may attract more adopters"

Who thinks women should be forced to carry pregnancies to term so that childless couples have babies to adopt?

Seriously?!

There is something so deeply sexist about trying to tie these two things together to make a moral argument about IVF being available.

It's disgusting.

' "As another poster said if it wasn't for abortions being legalised there would be more young children for adoption which may attract more adopters"

Who thinks women should be forced to carry pregnancies to term so that childless couples have babies to adopt?'

Be happy you don't live in the US AThingInYourLife. This is the attitude the pro-lifers take.

Captain only the white babies, though.... anti-abortion thugs protesters don't tend to hassle women of colour who are going into the clinic nearly as much as white women, to whom they yell "don't kill your baby!" and "I'll adopt your baby!" ... as if pregnancy and birth is no biggie at all..
Look at Every Saturday Morning blog for more stories, if you're interested in what it's like trying to access a legal medical procedure in the USA.

I'm an ex-American blackcurrants, I know all about it.

can you be an "ex" american?

I'm from Ireland, Captain, a country that fulfils the dreams of the American pro-life lobby.

You can't get an abortion in the Republic of Ireland even if continuing with the pregnancy will kill you.

Kewcumber, by "ex-American" I mean that I haven't lived there in over 10 years, have UK citizenship and have no intention of ever going back to live.

Sorry, Cap, didn't mean to sound preachy. I've been in the USA for 7 years now and I'm STILL not used to it. And I find friends in the UK tend to just not believe it, when I tell them!

No problem blackcurrants! My UK friends usually don't believe the stories I tell them either. Some youngsters I know (in their 20's) really think it's like they see on telly! They can't understand why I find living in the UK much, MUCH better than living in the US...

One of my friends was horribly hassled going to an abortion clinic in London :( We don't always import the best things from the US sadly ...

Captain - was wondering whether there was some kind of official renunciation ceremony

On the plus side (WRT Americans) they generally tend to be much more accepting and routine about adoption.

Skimmed the thread and the general content seems to be: I want I want I want, I WANT I GET, mixed in with a healthy dose of "cunt" and "piss off". Yes it certainly seems that everyone here would be a wonderful role model to a child.

View that it should not be a universal right firmly solidified, cheers.

Don't be ridiculous Aribura. There are some very well-thought-out posts on this thread. You just seem to want to stir up trouble instead of actually engaging with the debate.

That's not the gist of the thread at all. You haven't even bothered to read it properly.

Tell us about yourself OP. Do you have children? How long did you take to conceive them? Did you need medical intervention? Go on - tell all.

OP how horrible. Horrible discussion to start as well. Hope it hasn't upset anyone who is having IVF and good luck to everyone.

Im just shocked really that someone can be so HORRIBLE.