Would you be offended by a father accompanying his small daughters into the ladies toilet?

[NickECave]

I have two dds aged 4 and 2. My dh often takes them out and about in town on his own and inevitably needs to take them into public toilets. The thing is that male public toilets are often extremely dirty and unsanitary and I'd much rather he took them into the ladies. My question is would you be offended by a man coming into the ladies toilet when he is obviously accompanying a small girl? I don't personally know anyone who would have a problem with this but would be interesting to see if lots of people disagree with me.

If I can go/get in the ladies I will but some of the comments on here are getting a bit extreme. Especially when the nappy changing is in there, then you have to use them.

In town I can think of a couple of places where the disabled/nappy change one loo is downstairs and the ladies is upstairs and you would not be able to get a pram in there. You have to scope each place out and make a judgement call.

Saintly thats terrible, people are far too quick to start huffing and puffing. It might not be obvious that someone has a disability but if I saw a mother and a 13 year old in the ladies its obvious to me that there is a good reason for it otherwise you clearly would not have to do it, (if that makes sense).

YonWhaleFish - in the situation you describe, Tesco should put a notice on the door of the disabled loo saying, "Ladies/Gents facilities out of use - this toilet for the use of all customers", so that people would know that ablebodied people had been told to use them - I agree the disabled man shouldn't have abused your dh - clearly he didn't know that the Gents were out of use, and he should have, at least, asked your dh politely why he was using the disabled loos - but maybe he'd had too many experiences with people who were using the disabled loos because they felt 'entitled', and tarred your dh (unfairly) with the same brush.

SDT - if the nappy changing unit was in there Id have had no choice. If I was changing the nappy. Thats an issue for the facility you are in, and I would make a complaint if I was in the situation you described.

If it was full of 4 & 5 year olds, by all means let rip. You are right they should have queued.

OP

I do appreciate the feelings of people who see a ladies toilet as a female-only space and I understand the argument that all public toilets should be improved, but until they are, more and more children are looked after and taken out by fathers on their own and I find it rather sad that the first thing a woman might think on seeing a harrassed father with two small girls in the ladies toilet is "that guy's come in here to perv

It isnt that the woman would think the man had necessarily come in to perve- It is the presence of a man in an intimate female space. the mans intentions has nothing to do with it. A woman might experience a whole range of emotions; fear, oppression, panic etc. And for those saying what is the problem, they are in a cubicle; being in a small enclosed space unable to see the man outside, but knowing he is there can be a problem itself

It is sad NickECave. Its sad for the women who feel like this, that they have had experiences at the hands of men that make them feel like this.

As for the harrassed father? Im sure he'll cope

Im not sure that you actually do appreciate the feelings of people who see a ladies toilet as a female-only space

SDTG Exactly - I think it falls under the 'people too quick to huff and puff' that has been mentioned here - in the same way some folks are too quick to decide whether someone is disabled or not.

as many people are saying, alot of disabilities are not visible..so I find it hard to understand why a disabled person would assume anything about/abuse another person coming out of a disabled loo?

It might not be obvious that someone has a disability but if I saw a mother and a 13 year old in the ladies its obvious to me that there is a good reason for it otherwise you clearly would not have to do it, (if that makes sense)

Makes perfect sense to me. But even when told that ds1 is severely disabled people often seem to think that because he looks 'normal' he should be able to behave normally as well. People are odd!

SDT, if you needed a toilet that urgently, then say sorry and jump the queue. I hardly think anyone would expect you to wait in the queue in those circumstances.

There is no way of knowing whether people who look healthy and able-bodied have a reason to need to use the disabled toilet or not. Not all disabilities or medical conditions are visible.

People are odd, I would have thought people might have been a bit more understanding of your son, saintly, as most teenage boys would be mortified to be in the ladies if they didn't have to be, so you'd think they would understand that he needed help, iykwim. I would have expected people to huff more if he was 8 or 9, as they might think you were just being a bit overprotective.

Pickles - yes, if the changing unit was in there, that would clearly mean that the loo was meant for parents to use it as a changing facility as well as a disabled loo, and that would be an issue to take up with whoever owned/ran wherever the loos were.

On a previous thread like this, I have seen a disabled mumsnetter suggest that parents should be campaigning for parent-friendly loos - big cubicles that you can take your pram/buggy/children in - rather than using the disabled loos, that the disabled community has campaigned long and hard for - but that this doesn't happen because, unlike a disability (except for temporary ones ie being in plaster, having had an operation that temporarily restricts your mobility etc), having small children who need buggies, and require supervision and help with their toileting is not something that lasts forever.

I do think that the poster who posed the question about why it is considered acceptable to ignore the fact that some men might feel embarrassed at a small girl turning up in the Gents with her dad, but not acceptable to ignore the views of women who would be similarly embarrassed or upset about a dad turning up in the ladies' loos with his dd. Someone upthread said that if even a few women would be upset by a man taking his dd into the ladies, then it should never happen - so the same ought to apply to the Gents.

But what I don't understand about the buggy in disabled loos thing is you're prioritising an inanimate object over the needs of actual real life people - whatever their level of need. You're using the larger toilet to accomodate your luggage, essentially. The baby and the buggy are seperate things. You are not attending to the needs of parents with children but their desire for extra space to accommodate a load of metal and plastic, I just don't think stuff should have priority over people when people can do without the stuff.

I think that was me SDT. That doesnt leave them much option then? I think again it a judgement call. The father could call in does anyone mind if I bring my daughter in though a small gap in the door? He could also lurk by the door and explain to anyone coming in he is just with his daughter and wont be a sec. Or pop in the gents and say does anyone mind me bringing my daughter in? If everyone is offended they will have to turn feral and shit in the woods.

Maybe "lurk" isnt a good word. He might get lynched, I`ll change that to wait.

YonWhaleFish Mrs Eggrules

Seeing young children (male or female) in a public toilet with a female adult is normal for me.

I see cubicals as the private space and not the wider facility BUT I think there is a difference between men using ladies toilets and a father accompanying two young girls whilst they use a cubical in the ladies toilet/ changing facilities.

Until this thread I had no idea that feelings ran so strong about 'ladies toilet as a female-only space'.

A woman would never feel the need to say, does anyone mind my bringing my sons into the ladies'? It's accepted that small children will need to be taken to the loo by their parents or whoever's with them.

I don't know what the law is on toilets, but I would assume that the guidelines on it are similar to those of changing rooms. Generally, if a child is too young to use facilities alone, the organisations running the facilities allow you to take a very young child into the facility of the sex of the adult carer.

The purpose of segregated facilities is to allow adults and older children privacy from each other. The same thing happens in schools. Older children have separate facilities but very young children (say nursery and reception) all get changed in one room and may have shared toilets.

Because we generally accept that there is not a need for adults to have privacy from young children based on sex but we do accept that adults and older children are segregated based on sex.

Ivanna - I am pleased to be of service! for you too!

MissCoffee - not when the loos are dual purpose. and your not all the time if you have a newborn baby fast asleep in a pram and you dont want to wake them up then you are also paying heed to the comfort of a human being.

If the child is older and awake then yes thats a point. I said that I would make a judgement call based on the facilities, some are open to the outside and if you have two or three toddlers running around who wont fit into a small cubicle I can see why a mother would resort to a disabled loo if she is considering a childs safety.

I dont think stuff should have priority over a human being. Its like using a seat on a train for your bags and refusing to use them. Or using a disabled toilet cos you have a large item and its easier. But a baby is still a human being and if its a genuine reason for using the disabled then I don't think that's wrong.

Every case is different. Not everyone who uses a disabled loo does it from a sense of entitlement.

DS has unisex toilets at school (infants).

"Forgive me but I thought loos for the disabled were about inclusiveness not separation anyway."
what a stupid statement

and being a baby is not a disability

Being a baby isnt a disability. I didnt say that how silly.

Until this thread I had no idea that feelings ran so strong about 'ladies toilet as a female-only space'

No one has an objection to a small boy in the ladies, just that a ladies toilet is for female adults and children not male adults.

TBH I've never thought of it until this thread, how I'd feel if a grown man was in the ladies!

you said it was a genuine reason for using a disabled toilet.
It isn't unless the baby or parent is disabled.