To ask if you and your DH/DP have foreplay before PIV sex?

[Thistledew]

So many depressing comments come up on threads about women who have woken up to find their partner having sex with them to the effect that "well maybe he was confused, he could have thought you were happy to have sex with him whilst you were asleep/half asleep".

Do women who post these comments not see foreplay as part of having sex? For me and DP, sex always starts with kissing and even with the most passionate quicky, some sort of mutual squeezing/stroking/fondling of erogenous zones.

For me, there is no way that my DP could be confused as to whether I was consenting to sex or not. My lack of enthusiastic participation would be a real giveaway.

AIBU to think that there must be lots of women having pretty crap sex if they don't even expect kissing to start with?

Am I missing something or do some women have the ability to go from zero to turned on instantly? Or do you just have men with really small dicks so you don't need any sort of lubrication before they stick it in?

I am also interested to know whether women who would be happy to wake to find their partner penetrating them with his finger or penis would also be happy to find him penetrating them with a vibrator or dildo? Just curious.

But why are you interested to know? If anyone did tell you, you would no doubt be quick to tell them that they shouldnt be happy with that, it would seem. .

People do post for advice, (on the Relationships board rather than AIBU when it comes to the sort of subject you want to discuss), and just because you may not agree with what others say does not necessarily make them wrong or their opinion any less valid than yours.

It could be the case that a man has previously enjoyed a relationship with a woman who had absolutely no issues with him touching her while she was asleep, and has naively assumed that in subsequent relationship his partner would find it acceptable. That requires discussion, not accusation of rape, in my view. Obviously if the man were to continue doing this after being asked not to, that changes things.

Not everything is black and white.

Or indeed thistle whether they like to wake their partners by sticking a dildo up his arse. I totally get what you're saying.

Thistle I get where you are coming from. The problem on the thread I think is tht sex is such a personal thing for each of us, our boundaries and what we permit and enjoy differ wildly. I've realised from MN that some of the things that I enjoy are frowned upon horribly by others. That doesn't make me a victim of anything - but the same thing happening to other people would make them a victim.

Does that make sense? I'm not quite sure I'm getting it across right - basically if something bothers you it's wrong and shouldn't be happening. If you enjoy it, no one else should be telling you it's wrong.

I don't think anyone has said its acceptable if one person isn't happy.

Alice it would also depend on whether he liked a dildo up his arse when awake surely.

Sorry DP if that was to me, I was just trying to summarise my own thoughts...

In your world it might Rhonda. Not in mine.

And that's the whole point Alice!

thistledew That was not what meant,i meant for me personally it couldnt happen but I am in no doubt that it does as it used to happen to a friend.

I also believe that unless it is something previously aggreed on that penetrating someone without their consent is indeed rape.

Thanks catgirl. Will start my list with that. Who knew enjoying sex meant I was being manipulated.

What annoys me about some of the posters on MN is that even when you say you absolutely like something...they say it's because you've been 'conditioned' by the misogynistic world we live in.

So in other words, a woman can't possibly like something because she chooses to of her own free will.

Us poor little wimmen wot don't know our own minds

Oh and krumbum I can assure you, that in our relationship, dh is MORE likely to be the one giving oral sex than me.

Thanks god for MN eh DPrince. You could have had years of mistakenly thinking you were enjoying sex ahead of you. Years.

Exactly worra.

These threads are full of people saying that because they find this sex acceptable, they would call it rape, and that the poster would be overreacting to do so.

Squeaky - so if a man has previously had sex in a dark alley with a woman who is a stranger to him and she has enjoyed it, he should be absolved from responsibility if the next woman he does that to calls it rape? Regardless of whether he has asked her if she wants to have sex with him? All I have done is changed the location to between the sheets, and previously aquatinted the parties.

By correctly calling unwanted sex as rape, no-one is frogmarching the woman to a police station to make a report. They are simply validating her feelings of upset, and giving her a clear base from which she can make the best decision for her as to how she acts next.

What upsets me about these threads is the adamant refusal to validate a woman's feelings of violation by refusing to put the name to the behaviour that the law has defined as being wrong.

No Worra it's not that. It is because the whole of society is framed by the patriarchy and it is difficult to separate what is genuine "free choice" and what we have been conditioned to believe. Everyone is conditioned to believe and want certain things, that is only natural surely. Otherwise advertising wouldn't work. We don't the extent to which or the point at which your desires are independent of societal pressures.

We don't know the extent....

This thread doesn't have anyone remotely like that on it Thistledew

No one on here is refusing to validate anyones feelings.

Perhaps challenge such behaviour on threads where it exists instead of starting new threads in different sections? You are preaching to the converted here.

That's fantastic for you DPrince. I'm not being sarcastic. It's great when people can have a fair and equal sex life. Sadly, that is not the norm. However I do still think it is important to self examine and look at why we enjoy certain things. I'm not saying stop doing it if you ate harming no one I'm saying we as a culture should change our attitudes to sex so female sexuality is more visible and normalised than it is now. I was simply saying I think our ideas of what we like sexually may be different in a this fairer society, and a man using a women's unconscious body is one of those things. I'm looking for more Sexual freedom not less as you seem to have misunderstood.

What worra said and one persons sex boundaries are so different to another's. Not really a debate.

' It is because the whole of society is framed by the patriarchy and it is difficult to separate what is genuine "free choice" and what we have been conditioned to believe'

And yet feminism exists in a patriarchal society. These oppressive men have done a very bad job of conditioning in this case. Or is it the case that conditioning is utter BS.

Maybe feminists have been conditioned by the patriarchy to fight against it, because men are tired of being expected to be chivalrous, providers etc... The conditioning possibilities are endless.

Cat- no, I don't think it would be helpful to hijack a thread on which a woman has posted asking for help in order to have a wider debate about the issues surrounding these sorts of sexual practices.

I really don't think challenging people who were minimising someone benig sexually assaulted and dismissing thier feelings because they don't mind sex when asleep would be hijacking a thread Thistledew.

If saw behaviour like that I would certainly stand up and say something.

That would make some sorta sense Sigmundfraude if most people were feminist. But they are not. It is a minority of people who have chosen to work against patriarchy. Ofc we are conditioned, for example why are most people in this country unreligious but in other countries 99% of ppl ate religious. There is so much evidence for socialisation, theorists and social scientists don't even argue, just examine its uses and extents!

I like it because I like it. Why does the op insist on kissing and foreplay? I would be wrong if I said she sounds sexually high maintenance and selfish. She likes what she likes. Is she trying to validate herself. Is she being conditioned to think only one type of sex is acceptable, has her partners conditioned her into thinking she likes foreplay because he does. No. Why is her version of what is great sex the only one that means she is not being abused? Why us that way the only way to have sex? Its not and telling women they are manipulated because they like something different is your own version of oppression. Yes some women do things they don't like. But i am commenting on my situation and not presuming anything about others. I am capable of knowing what i like without manipulation.