To ask if you and your DH/DP have foreplay before PIV sex?

[Thistledew]

So many depressing comments come up on threads about women who have woken up to find their partner having sex with them to the effect that "well maybe he was confused, he could have thought you were happy to have sex with him whilst you were asleep/half asleep".

Do women who post these comments not see foreplay as part of having sex? For me and DP, sex always starts with kissing and even with the most passionate quicky, some sort of mutual squeezing/stroking/fondling of erogenous zones.

For me, there is no way that my DP could be confused as to whether I was consenting to sex or not. My lack of enthusiastic participation would be a real giveaway.

AIBU to think that there must be lots of women having pretty crap sex if they don't even expect kissing to start with?

Am I missing something or do some women have the ability to go from zero to turned on instantly? Or do you just have men with really small dicks so you don't need any sort of lubrication before they stick it in?

"You made an 'innocent' statement and then tried to manipulate it around to suggesting that anyone who has sex without foreplay or as wake-up sex should really reconsider themselves as having been raped."

No, once again, not anyone who has sex without foreplay. But those who try to justify men who have sex with unconscious women, because they accept it themselves.

Why do people keep wilfully missing this?

Betty - did you miss the several posts that I have made making the point that if you are happy for your partner to penetrate you whilst you are asleep, then you have consented and it is therefore not rape? But that where a woman is not happy, it is a strong indicator that real consent is lacking? I know that this is now quite a long thread and it is easy to miss posts, so if you really think I have tried to tell women who have had this sort of sex that they have been raped, you should perhaps read it again.

I'm not sure where you are going with the wild accusations about this all being some sort of conspiracy. It sounds like you are either very upset at feeling tricked into joining this discussion, or that you have some sort of agenda to try to discredit the points I have made. I hope it is not the latter, but suggesting I am a false memory counsellor is just bizarre.

Was this thread started in response to the sleepsex one where the OP turned out to be male?

Kiss- yes it was- and in response to the steady stream of other threads posted by women who have been unhappy with their partner penetrating them when they are asleep.

I stand by the comments that I made on that thread- what sort of person enjoys having sex with someone who is not fully physically and mentally turned on? When they haven't taken the trouble to find out whether it is ok with their partner first?

I was going to say that I still don't understand why anyone would be 'happy' to have sex when they are not fully turned on at the point of penetration (although this thread has made it clear that some women are). But I do kind of get it. I was previously in a relationship where the question of whether I was enthusiastically participating and fully turned on was not really important to my partner. Bizarrely, I was much more 'up for' any sort of sex, whatever, whenever, than I am now with DP who does care about these things. The point of sex in my previous relationship was not about my needs, or even both our needs together, but about his needs. Therefore, I pushed aside a part of my own sexual identity.

I know, from the comments on this thread, that many women are happy to have sex when they are not fully mentally or physically aroused. Rather than just complaining that they are being told what to think about sex, it would be more helpful if they could describe why it is they like this. Why it is that they are happy to have sex when they are not fully physically and mentally wanting it.

I don't think that's what people have said, I think what they have said is that sex doesn't have to begin with kissing, move onto touching and then to penetration in the way you have described. I think they have also said that you describing sex that doesn't follow this pattern as crap sex is incorrect.

So in light of the revelation that the OP of the thread in question was male and aroused enough in his sleep to be capable of penetrative sex can't you see that it's quite possible for women to be 'physically' ready for sex in their sleep and capable of enjoying it, despite not following the formulaic, kiss, squeeze, fondle etc.

And yes I know both sexes can be physically aroused but not wanting sex but since your OP and subsequent posts concentrated on claims such as 'what sort of man would enjoy having sex with a woman who hadn't been fondled first' (i'm paraphrasing) and 'how could a woman possibly enjoy it without a build up' I thought I'd address the physiology of it all.

But it is what I am saying. If your partner penetrates you whilst you are asleep, you will not be physically or mentally aroused. So what's in it for you? What do you get out of this sort of sex that you wouldn't get from penetrative sex that starts when you are fully awake?

Because for me, having penetrative sex when I am not physically and mentally aroused amounts to crap sex. What is the ingredient that I am failing to notice, which raises crap sex to good sex?

Or am I wrong, and it is possible to have good sex when you are not turned on? Surely the whole point of sex (aside from procreation) is being sexually aroused and there is something missing if you are not?

Also, for me, it is a huge turn off to have sex with a partner who does not care if you are aroused or not. To me, having sex with someone who is asleep is a clear indicator that you don't care whether or not your partner is aroused. Is it not, shall we say a little 'niche' to be turned on by someone who doesn't care if you are turned on?

No, the point is you can be sexually aroused whilst being asleep!

id say that it was probably a d/s type thing. Just because you might not be aroused before sex, doesnt mean it doesnt happen, and the idea of your feelings being disregarded can be very erotic for some.

Physically, maybe, but mentally? Every time?

Maybe some women do, but there are many, myself included, who would not.

Even for the women who do get both physically and mentally aroused by their partner in their sleep, do you and your partner not place emphasis on your right to say, "no, I would rather not be touched at this moment in time"? Or is there an assumption that the mental arousal will always continue once you are fully awake?

Dinah - I am no expert, but I think anyone who practices BDSM would say that a 'sub' always retains true control over what they do, that there are very careful boundaries, and that their wishes are never truly 'disregarded'.

definitely, and i would hope that in those situations, if the woman woke up and really didnt want to carry on, He would stop

otherwise its not bdsm, its abusive

"Maybe some women do, but there are many, myself included, who would not."

And that's fine. You're the only one asserting that the way they feel is the only way to feel.

I'm not clear whether you are telling up this now, tyler, but so far, none of the women posting on this thread have said that they become physically and mentally aroused whilst they are asleep. Some posters have even said that they don't, that they find the sex uncomfortable but do it anyway.

Maybe I am wrong in assuming that women who do get aroused in this way are a minority, just as they would wrongly assume that most women do.

It still doesn't answer the question of why women who don't get aroused by sex whilst they are sleeping are still happy to do it.

"I'm not clear whether you are telling up this now, tyler, but so far, none of the women posting on this thread have said that they become physically and mentally aroused whilst they are asleep."

No, most have not stated one way or the other. Some have stated that being not quite comfortable is part of the thrill, and what is the thrill if not mental arousal. At least one person has stated they're not happy with it.

Nobody has said, 'you must be such a prude if you don't like this, totally repressed, you must have a crap sex life'

Most have said something along the lines of different strokes for different folks.

I can't begin to understand, for example, the attraction in swinging, it's definitely not for me. That doesn't make it wrong, or mean that anyone who enjoys it has been deluded into what they find pleasurable and exciting and I'm not going to start a thread insinuating that there's something wrong about enjoying it.

*Feminists are usually charged with being humourless prudes. Try going the other way and you also get your hand well and truly slapped. wink

Best just to be silent, really. That way you can be sure of upsetting no-one.*

Not really sure why you keep insisting the OP is a feminist Sodoff.

I have seen no evidence of it on this thread - the belittling of other women, the desire to "trick" them rather than engage openly in an adult debate suggest the exact opposite to me.

Where on earth has the idea come from that I have tricked people into posting things they otherwise would not have? Has anyone actually felt tricked? I said I posted to provoke.

I am also sorry if anyone felt belittled by my view that some sorts of sex are pretty crap. If you have thought about why you do it and are not just doing it because it is expected of you, then your view that it is the best thing since sliced bread is just as valid as my view that it is akin to eating the mouldy end of the loaf.

Maybe to avoid feelings of being tricked and belittled, I should have obtained prior explicit consent before making the points I have done on this thread. Just because AIBU is known to be a rowdy forum where posters can expect to have their opinions robustly challenged, doesn't mean that it is right to spring a point of view on them when they are not expecting it.

I think lots of people can like things that not everyone is into it doesnt always mean they are coerced or doing something to please the other one.i mean there are so many weird kjnks out there you read things about some men paying women to kick them in the balls.sex is a strange thing!

True, molly, but the converse is also all too common, as is evident from the number of threads that come up where a woman has posted about feeling unhappy about her partner penetrating her whilst she sleeps. It is also evident from the comments that predictably come up saying that it is nothing to get upset about; that she had encouraged it by doing x y z; that because other people do it she is making a fuss over nothing.

There are similarities between the lack of consent that occurs when someone is doing something because they are coerced, and the lack of consent that occurs when a man penetrates a sleeping woman. In the latter example, there is an obvious case to say that there is a prima facie lack of consent, and you have to step back and look at the relationship to see if consent has in fact been given at another time.

This thread is not really aimed at posters such as catgirl, who are perfectly sure that they are happy for their partner to penetrate them whilst they are sleeping. It is aimed at the people posting on or reading this thread who are not so sure that they are happy, but 'allow' their partners to do it because they think it is what everyone else is doing, or because their partner has 'needs' or because they have lost sight of the importance of their right to enjoy every moment of every sexual encounter. It is these women who I would like to help think through the sex they are having, and to help them have the confidence to re-negotiate the sexual boundaries of their relationship, and kick to the kerb those partners who will not do so.

as is evident from the number of threads that come up where a woman has posted about feeling unhappy about her partner penetrating her whilst she sleeps

Where are these threads though?

I genuinely don't think I've read one in AIBU and I've been using MN for around 16 months.

They mostly come up in Relationships Worra. I have been keeping a count because this issue really bothers me, and there has been about one every month/ 6 weeks this year.

It is these women who I would like to help think through the sex they are having, and to help them have the confidence to re-negotiate the sexual boundaries of their relationship, and kick to the kerb those partners who will not do so.

Well no doubt suggesting to them that their partners must have "small dicks" is the way to get them to feel comfortable talking to you. They must instantly get a sense that you are non-judgemental and there to help. Letting them know that there is no way your DP could ever be confused about consent must reassure them no end that they are not doing anything wrong and really help them realise they are not to blame for anything their DP does that they don't like.

Admirable intention Thistle but the way you have tried to approach this is truly terrible and likely to further alienate or distress the very women you were hoping to help.

Fail.