To ask if you and your DH/DP have foreplay before PIV sex?

[Thistledew]

So many depressing comments come up on threads about women who have woken up to find their partner having sex with them to the effect that "well maybe he was confused, he could have thought you were happy to have sex with him whilst you were asleep/half asleep".

Do women who post these comments not see foreplay as part of having sex? For me and DP, sex always starts with kissing and even with the most passionate quicky, some sort of mutual squeezing/stroking/fondling of erogenous zones.

For me, there is no way that my DP could be confused as to whether I was consenting to sex or not. My lack of enthusiastic participation would be a real giveaway.

AIBU to think that there must be lots of women having pretty crap sex if they don't even expect kissing to start with?

Am I missing something or do some women have the ability to go from zero to turned on instantly? Or do you just have men with really small dicks so you don't need any sort of lubrication before they stick it in?

If you want to talk about specific sex acts, I think PIV is a useful term - it avoids confusion. To call PIV sex and then give other terms to different sorts of sex implies that PIV (sorry) is 'proper' sex and other acts somehow don't count, are not normal or are 'just' foreplay.

Worra I think this thread is a response to this one and others that crop up with alarming frequency where a man is raping his partner in her sleep.

I really don't care what anybody gets up to with their partner(s) as long as all involved are consenting enthusiastically.

The problem is that in that thread the OP was upset and alarmed by what happened.

Others have an ongoing consent with their partners, so object to the term 'rapist' being bandied about, because consent before every act hasn't been gained.

The feminist boards regular posters do love telling other women how they are deluded and what type of sex/sex toys, that they should be into and why they should be opposed to them.

That's the thing, I really don't care either as long as other people are happy.

I totally agree if one person isn't happy then there is a big problem (that thread linked to being a good example). That is different to what is being discussed on this thread though as the OP seems to be challenging women who do sometimes enjoy sex with minimal or no foreplay

Birds is spot on when she says there are some posters who love telling other women how they are deluded and what type of sex/sex toys, that they should be into and why they should be opposed to them. and this thread seemed like one of those from the OP.

This just reeks of selfish misogyny from the men involved.
This sort of comment is what then? I don't get the 'it can only be enjoyable if I say so and anything else is wrong' is going back to times that women weren't meant to enjoy sex and it was a marital right if the man. Not really feminsim to tell women that they should conform to one idea of sex, is it?

I'm a feminist and have become disillusioned with the MN feminist boards for this reason. I don't agree with women telling other women what they should be doing sexually. Consent is all that's needed, as long as all parties are consenting then anything goes.

I don't recognise this "woke up and found he was in me". You must sleep very soundly.
I often wake up to find DP is fondling, and usually I'm happy to join in. On the odd occasion when I'm not in the mood I only have to say so and he'll turn over and grumble a bit.

DPrince, I'm looking at the wider context. Why is it that women feel the need to revolve their own sexuality around what men want. Real women don't have to be porn stars who are up for piv sex whenever, wherever even though this type of is not the most sexually satisfying for women. I'm not telling people they shouldn't have sex this way I'm just looking at why people would make this choice. Misogyny within our culture means we only see sex from the male gaze and we all internalise this. Im just wondering if we lived in a society where the sexuality of women was celebrated would things like this still happen.

'Misogyny within our culture means we only see sex from the male gaze and we all internalise this.'

That's not true though is it. I have seen article after article about women's sexuality, how to make sex more pleasurable for women, what women want in bed etc etc..magazines are full of them.

I can't recall seeing similar articles about men.

I think some posters only see sex from the male gaze

Fortunately others have a wider view.

Teeb. I have been in a lesbian relationship and luckily my gf did not sexually assault me while I was unconscious. How can you be aroused when you are asleep? Unless you are constantly aroused which would probably mean you had a medical problem. And even if you were aroused how would your partner know you were asleep, a finger can hurt as much as a penis. We can all be misogynistic, most of us internalise the male gaze even lesbian women. I just think it should be examined why we feel the need to conform to male sexuality. My gf didn't assault me but she take on a 'masculine' role in our relationship and in our sex life, why is that? Why did we not simply be equals?

Misogyny within our culture means we only see sex from the male gaze and we all internalise this.

Speak for yourself, but not everyone else.

Sallyingforth

You sleep lightly, so those who don't are lying?

Gotcha.

Sigmundfraud. Firstly that isn't true if you also look at men's mags there's tons of sex advice for them and if you look closely at articles about improving sex for women it is often about how to look sexy in bed and act sexy for men. That is not liberation. If your interested have a read of 'female chauvinist pigs' by Ariel levy or 'living dolls' by Natasha Walter. Very interesting, eye opening stuff.

krumbum my sexual preferences have nothing to do with a male view of sex. I like certain things that dh also enjoys and vice versa. Why if someone likes something that's not the norm (in your opinion) it must be satisfy the man and can not possibly be because THEY like\ want it.

nzlopi
You've 'got' no-one. I said nothing about lying and there is no reason to think that anyone has.

I said that to sleep through PIV one must be a very heavy sleeper.
I sleep well, but no way could I be penetrated without waking up. Which is just as well because to find out afterwards I would probably feel I'd missed out :(

DPrince, I'm not saying your personal sex life is controlled this way and if we're it's not conscious. But we we have all been socialised it's part of living. And as we live in a misogynistic society... It seems convenient when you really look at it that the majority of common sexual acts are for the benefit of men: piv sex, oral sex on men much more common than on women, female submission/male dominance fantasy, anal sex, women's 'sexy' underwear and women dressing up, women removing body hair, lack of foreplay etc. I'm not saying all sex is for men but I think it could be more equal and be more for women. This is a positive thing. I don't think girls should be brought up to think sex is about thongs and blow jobs which if you speak to young women they do feel that pressure, in the majority.

Being a light sleeper i find it hard to believe it could even happen. I wake up if dh goes to the loo or comes to bed later than me so he wouldnt get a chance to get near me never mind shag me

The reason I made this post was because I think there is something very wrong with the posts that appear on threads where women have asked for help processing an experience where they have woken up to find their male partner penetrating them with fingers or penis and are unhappy with it, yet posters respond by saying "It's fine. You shouldn't categorise it as sexual assault because it is something I do with my partner as part of a loving relationship".

I wanted to highlight the following points:

a) for probably the majority of women, being penetrated without notice is usually uncomfortable if not painful. Lots of women would not consent to this at all.

b) there is a difference between having lazy, half asleep sex and sex when one partner is out cold. The difference is that with the former both partners are in a position to signal their consent or otherwise.

c) there is a huge difference between a relationship where both parties have agreed that this sort of sex would be welcomed, and this sort of sex where one of the parties hasn't bothered to check if it would be ok with the other. The difference is consent. It is not ok to presume consent.

d) it is not ok for consent to be presumed just because other people in the same situation would consent.

e) sex without consent is rape. Even if the person raping did not intend to rape, if they couldn't be sure as to whether the person was consenting or not, it is rape.

I hope this thread has helped people reading and posting on it to think about their own relationships, to be clear that they have a right to their feelings if this type of sex is unacceptable to them, and to acknowledge more clearly the importance of their own consent to such sex if they do welcome it.

I'm sorry if this has come across as at all patronising. It wasn't my intent, despite some deliberately provocative comments in my OP. I know that every poster who has contributed wants to help women who have been the victim of sexual assault or rape, but please, if you are going to post on such threads where women are asking for help, think carefully whether she has enjoyed the same opportunity to consent that you value in your own relationship. Listen to her - and consider why her unhappiness indicates a difference to your own happy sex life.

Did you post in the wrong topic then?

Because I haven't seen any threads like that

Perhaps you meant to post in Relationships where those kind of threads actually are?

My sex life is about us, as a couple. For every fantasy there is an equivalent for women. Therefore you are wrong. Saying that women only enjoy certain types of sex because they are being controlled (maybe unknowingly) is a kin to say that women are incapable of deciding what sexual acts they enjoy. If its not the same as you, the women must be being manipulated. That's not equality is it? It seems you think women should be equal to men, but only if they act a way you find appropriate. Seems a bit hypocritical to me.
I am also going to write a list and tell dh that we can only engage in what the op et al say, other wise it could be abuse. Forget what we want/ like.

Ledkr- be careful, it sounds like you are coming close to disbelieving a woman's account of sexual assault. I speak the honest truth when I say that it happened to me twice with my ExP. I sleep pretty deeply.

I am also interested to know whether women who would be happy to wake to find their partner penetrating them with his finger or penis would also be happy to find him penetrating them with a vibrator or dildo? Just curious.

I haven't seen anyone say

"I like something in my sex life so it must be right"

Well - anyone except you OP

DP - you need to start with kissing and even with the most passionate quicky, some sort of mutual squeezing/stroking/fondling of erogenous zones.

Vibrator - no. Because I don't like using them. Tried it, not my bag
but then dh knows that and I trust he wouldn't do it. However I don't tell people they are wrong for using them, see my point?