To think some Catholics don't understand their own faith

[zombiegames]

Okay I admit a thread about a couple of other threads.

I was brought up Catholic, but am not one now - but I do understand how the way you are brought up as a Catholic gets under your skin. But it does make me angry that other people here who say they are catholics, appear to have so little understanding of their own faith.

The pope is not just someone whose opinion you can dismiss if you are a catholic. He is christs representative on earth and he is infallible - that means he can't be wrong. This is an absolute key part of the one true faith. It is not a side belief that can be conveniently ignored.

So when the pope says for example that gay marriage or using condoms is wrong, that is a belief of the catholic faith and can't just be dismissed. If you say this is wrong, you are saying that the pope is not infallible and thus you are questioning an absolute key part of catholicism.

Why does this anger me? Because a lot of people who are not and have never been catholics don't really understand catholicism as can be seen on here when non catholic parents who send dcs to catholic schools froth on here about what their dcs are being taught. Posters who post about being catholic and non homophobic, are misrepresenting catholicism to those who don't understand it. If the pope says something, then that is part of the catholic faith and is what catholics should believe.

And sorry I probably ABU as I know this is a bit of a rant, even though it is true.

OP YABU for lots of reasons, not least your incorrect understanding of papal infallibility.

TBH, your post seems to be yet another "If you're not bigoted, you can't be Catholic" thread.

How people view and practice their Catholicism is none of your business. Unless you're the pope.

Your not the pope are you?

YABU. Not just for posting about ex cathedra without understanding it, although that was asking for trouble. But also because of your failure to distinguish what church doctrine is from what happens on the ground. It's true that the church has official positions on various subjects such as gay marriage and contraception. It's also true that the RC church in this country is quite liberal, and these positions simply aren't held by the majority here. The doctrine and the practice are different. You're entitled to morally disagree with this if you want to. But people posting about being Catholic and not homophobic are not misrepresenting the issue. They are speaking about the situation on the ground in most parishes and schools- not all. This is as much a matter of fact as the church teaching is. It has more impact on the day to day lives of most British Catholics than church teaching does, too.

Additionally, some of us identify as Catholic not because we're religious- I'm agnostic and pro secular- but because that's the culture we grew up in and belong to. Our tribe, if you will. I respect the right of those who are from our tribe to reject it and no longer identify as Catholic, if they want. But it isn't what I want. I claim the right to culturally identify myself however I wish, and the fact is that I was raised in a Catholic community and am still accepted as part of it. Dara O'Brien said it best when he explained that he's an atheist, but still Catholic. You don't get out that easily: if he went to Afghanistan and joined the Taliban, he'd just be a bad Catholic!

Regarding the issue of the Catholic church not having covered itself in glory in the recent past, this is true- and indeed in the not so recent past. It's also true that this country has not covered itself in glory wrt to the treatment of Catholics in the past, either. The folk memory of this has not yet left us. As such, it isn't surprising that Catholics sometimes get a bit antsy when they feel there's bashing going on.

good point ethelb - I thin the reason is that we live in an age of liberal intolerance, i.e., to have a view on anything that is away from mainstream is just unacceptable and bigoted (I love that expression).

I am not a catholic but I am a Christian - I am sure it is possible to be catholic and struggle with the concept of the pope - for no other reason than the fact he is clearly human and therefore fallible.

I struggle with lots of aspects of Christianity but fundamentally I believe in God and the resurrection and that is what makes me Christian. I am sure in Catholicism there are lots of catholics that are in this position of struggling with the certain ideas but their their core beliefs making them Catholic (IYSWIM)

Wasn't the pope in the hitler youth also at one point the church advocated slavery so let's not go round saying its a non movable thing that cant be changed.

The thing that pisses me of is that people who claim they are deeply religious

Readly expect single mothers and people who are living together but are not married but seem to not expect gay people on the ground of their religion

All of the above are sins but oly one is singled out my view it's just their chance to be a bigot

It's like the women in the news a while back who claimed she couldn't go on with her job as was against her faith to marry gays but happy was she to marry divorcees, people with children so clearly had sex before marriage but hay maybe it's only me who sees the double standard

I know people who won't attained a gay wedding because of their faith but were at their divorcced cousins seconed ŵedding

According to her faith she shouldn't have been at either wedding but couldn't see the issue with the latter so I can only assume the gay thing is bigots hiding behind religion

Why cant people distinguish between 'faith' and 'religion'. Even professed catholics. Good God. It is basic stuff, people.

I believe in transubstantiation, the saints, confession, Our Lady and so on. That is the core of my faith, not contraception disputes or homosexuality disputes.

I am pretty sure that the Anglican (protestant) church believes in transubstantiation.
Just thought I would mention it.

Do they really? I thought that was one of the things that the Reformation was about. Anyway, you get my gist.

why does OP give a fuck what other people believe or how they approach the challenges and mysteries of their own faith?

Because religion is something that should be discussed and questioned, perhaps?@Moral

If you have blind faith in your own church and faith, bully for you. That doesn't mean the rest of us can't discuss, debate and question away to our hearts content.

Thank goodness some of us do question it, is all I can say. If we didn't ever question anything, there would have been millions more children abused by paedophile priests....

OP, I am with you, btw.

Pretty sure that the 39 Articles has something to say against the doctrine of transubstantiation.

Gives me hope that when people bleat on here about Catholicism being the biggest church, about 90% of the members are as described on here, not actually believing in any of the main parts of the religion or even the Pope.

Amen!@Aribura

It is funny, though, isnt it? 'I am a catholic but I dont believe in living my life like a catholic, or agree with most of what the Pope says'.

Bit like the Labour party. About 5% are real socialists, and nobody likes Milliband

They are not the main parts of the religion.

Those would be:

You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.

You shall love your neighbour as yourself.

"Like a Catholic"?

Like which Catholic? I live my life like the majority of Catholics I know. It doesn't fit your idea, but there you go...

But that is Christianity, not only Catholicism, surely? @Fallen

I think you know what I mean by 'like a Catholic'. I am sure your representative of God on earth - the Pope - could clarify

I have only read the op and yabu and wrong!

Catholics are Christians. Strangely enough, the most important part of our religion is common to other Christian Churches.

You mean the kind of Catholic it's easy to categorise as a bigot. Which makes sweeping dismissal much easier. I can see that. I don't think it makes for interesting debate though.

BettyGrable: "Bit like the Labour party. About 5% are real socialists, and nobody likes Milliband"

A bit like the Labour Party, but perhaps not very much. The Labour Party is an organisation whose policies are discussed and voted on by members, and which naturally accommodates a very wide range of views. If the members didn't like Miliband, they'd get rid of him. I think what puzzled the OP was that the Catholic Church is a very rigid hierarchical organisation where doctrine is decided at the top and supposedly adhered to by those lower down, but in fact the majority of lay Catholics (at least in the West) ignore what they are told by those at the top. Perhaps the real question is: why belong to an institution that is hierarchical and anti-democratic if you are going to ignore the hierarchy and make your own mind up about stuff? I think the answer is probably that lay Catholics think the church belongs to them, not the pope, in the same way that (to use an analogy from Nick Hornby), the Arsenal football team belongs to the fans not the players.

What would you say makes for interesting debate, then?

I am sorry if it is hard to hear that I (and others, clearly) think it is a complete cop-out for people to claim to be Catholic but live their lives like they are especially lax C of E followers, while supporting a Pope who is the most right-wing, reactionary bigot.

In my world, that is called hypocrisy.

Supporting the Pope? On what?

I wonder why it matter to you that I am bad Catholic? Or why you think it would be hard for me to hear that you think I am?

Yes, exactly. BettyGrable the fact is that British Catholics are British as well as Catholic. Catholicism being a world religion, it is filtered through many different cultures. Unsurprisingly, therefore, the practice is not uniform across the world. Nor is 'typical Catholic behaviour'. There's not really any such thing. If you look at things like people's social attitudes, behaviour and even their politics, Catholics behave differently depending on which society they're in. So actually, you'll find that most of those on this thread are living their lives exactly like Catholics. Ones from the same tradition they come from.

Any religion that is hard to understand is or far too complicated to remember everything about, in my opinion is a load of nonsense. If something is that true and sacrosanct, then it should be self evident. And I'm afraid Catholicism could be accused of this almost more than any denomination/religion. How can a person be infallible? Why should someone have to endlessly study something in order to be "good" or get into heaven?

This is why I am a follower of no religion.

@ariel why more than anyother religion? Is it because you havne't studied the complexities of hinduism as much? Or the hypocracies of judaism don't come up as much at dinner parties?