To think some Catholics don't understand their own faith

[zombiegames]

Okay I admit a thread about a couple of other threads.

I was brought up Catholic, but am not one now - but I do understand how the way you are brought up as a Catholic gets under your skin. But it does make me angry that other people here who say they are catholics, appear to have so little understanding of their own faith.

The pope is not just someone whose opinion you can dismiss if you are a catholic. He is christs representative on earth and he is infallible - that means he can't be wrong. This is an absolute key part of the one true faith. It is not a side belief that can be conveniently ignored.

So when the pope says for example that gay marriage or using condoms is wrong, that is a belief of the catholic faith and can't just be dismissed. If you say this is wrong, you are saying that the pope is not infallible and thus you are questioning an absolute key part of catholicism.

Why does this anger me? Because a lot of people who are not and have never been catholics don't really understand catholicism as can be seen on here when non catholic parents who send dcs to catholic schools froth on here about what their dcs are being taught. Posters who post about being catholic and non homophobic, are misrepresenting catholicism to those who don't understand it. If the pope says something, then that is part of the catholic faith and is what catholics should believe.

And sorry I probably ABU as I know this is a bit of a rant, even though it is true.

Gwen - If I was brought up jewish I might post that, but as I am not I have no idea how important keeping kosher is and how those who don't view it. I posted this based on my own personal experience, not because I am particularly targetting catholicism.

In terms of infallible statements I thought they included ones on immaculate conception, euthanasia, murder and abortion.

I thought papal infallibility was a construct of corrupt Catholicism of the middles ages. It may be presented as core to the Catholic faith, but really it's a Johnny-Come-Lately.

That same Wikipedia article has the following comment on ex cathedra statements:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility#Instances_of_infallible_declarations

"Instances of infallible declarations

The Catholic Church does not teach that the pope is infallible in everything he says; official invocation of papal infallibility is extremely rare.
Catholic theologians agree that both Pope Pius IX's 1854 definition of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary and Pope Pius XII's 1950 definition of the dogma of the Assumption of Mary are instances of papal infallibility, a fact which has been confirmed by the Church's magisterium.[66] However, theologians disagree about what other documents qualify.
Regarding historical papal documents, Catholic theologian and church historian Klaus Schatz made a thorough study, published in 1985, that identified the following list of ex cathedra documents (see Creative Fidelity: Weighing and Interpreting Documents of the Magisterium, by Francis A. Sullivan, chapter 6):

• "Tome to Flavian", Pope Leo I, 449, on the two natures in Christ, received by the Council of Chalcedon;
• Letter of Pope Agatho, 680, on the two wills of Christ, received by the Third Council of Constantinople;
• Benedictus Deus, Pope Benedict XII, 1336, on the beatific vision of the just prior to final judgment;
• Cum occasione, Pope Innocent X, 1653, condemning five propositions of Jansen as heretical;
• Auctorem fidei, Pope Pius VI, 1794, condemning seven Jansenist propositions of the Synod of Pistoia as heretical;
• Ineffabilis Deus, Pope Pius IX, 1854, defining the Immaculate Conception; Munificentissimus Deus, Pope Pius XII, 1950, defining the Assumption of Mary.

The Holy See has given no complete list of papal statements considered to be infallible."

Everybody understands their own faith.

Everybody's faiths are different.

Because they're all made up.

The Jewish thing is completely irrelevant,

There are clearly defined orthodox, reform and liberal reformed sects, just like the different branches of Christianity.

I don't find wikipedia to always be accurate on these matters, official catholic websites are better.

Lollopybear: I meant that the comparison you quoted was between care and family headed by a homosexual couple. It did not compare adoption into families headed by homosexual couple, heterosexual couple, single parent etc.

So they are rare, and it's not even agreed which they are. But it seems from this list to be unlikely that everyday commentary on matters of man is the variety of pronouncement to which the doctrine of papal infallibility applies.

zombiegames - if you can find an equally informative list on an official Catholic website please do. I couldn't! Hence Wikipedia (which I agree should be approached with caution, though my experience is not that it is significantly inaccurate).

I write this with some trepidation, largely because I live in NI and these issues can be quite incendiary but... most of the Catholics I know are actually in some respects Protestants! By which I mean they attend Mass and consider themselves Catholic but largely dismiss Catholic dogma about contraception, homosexuality etc which ironically means they are protesting against the dogma of the church.

I've said this to my Catholic DH and he agrees with the theory - I'm a non-practising Protestant. I think a lot of religious people stick to the religion they are brought up in out of familiarity but keep the bits that work for them and ignore the rest (on both sides of the fence). Unfortunately that sometimes means that the church in question gets the idea that the stuff they are spouting is okay with their followers. I did hear of people walking out of mass when the homosexuality stuff was read out in church a few months back - that is a really big deal here so probably sent a message of sorts - but doubt it will ever get back to Rome just how disgusted people were. And the Pope probably thinks that's just a sign of misguided people being on the wrong path.

I'm with you zombie! I was brought up catholic and left the church as soon as I could as a teenager.

In my view, brushing the unsavoury views under the carpet with 'oh I personally don't believe that' while still maintaining that you're part is a very small step away from condoning them.

That would be an ecumenical matter

Yes Mariah. It would be entirely reasonable to say "How can you call yourself an Orthodox Jew when you don't keep kosher?" but not "how can you call yourself Jewish".
Analogously there's no problem at all in being a Christian who is in a gay relationship or masturbates or has IVF or uses contraception, but there is a problem being a Catholic who does those things. (a problem that many many people who call themselves Catholic are happy to live with of course)

I am a catholic, i don;t go to church, i have two children out of wedlock, ithink homosexuality is OK, the pope was voted in by the top knobs at the vatican - I am christened as a catholic, i believe in God. How dare you suggest otherwise

kittyfontanelles I wish i though of that :)

I suspect none of us truly understands and agrees with the minutiae of our chosen religion. We go down the path that seems rightest to us. Even theologians argue about what certain doctrinal points mean.

The same is true of politics. We mostly agree it's all pointless, but come voting day most of us choose a particular party to put our vote next to.

I doubt if anyone has read the entire manifesto prior to doing so, and even if they have they won't agree with everything in it. But on balance it's the best decision for them.

YABU

YANBU.

"In my view, brushing the unsavoury views under the carpet with 'oh I personally don't believe that' while still maintaining that you're part is a very small step away from condoning them." - totally agree with this.

You dont practise your religion@boringickname. You are a lapsed Catholic. Be honest with yourself, at least.

RubyGates, does that make it right? That we follow blindly based on a rough idea of what we are signing up to?

A lapsed catholic, i agree, but still a catholic.

MariahScary "RubyGates, does that make it right? That we follow blindly based on a rough idea of what we are signing up to?"

Two things - absolutely - isn't that was FAITH is supposed to be? Believing, without question?

Secondly - most people are not given a choice as to whether or not to be catholic/muslim or whatever religeon they are. They are born into a family that makes that decision based on their beliefs, mostly based on what they were born into. So that is what makes me feel able to call myself a catholic, even though i don't practice.

Surely if you are 'catholic' but don't agree with the central beliefs of the faith such as no gay marriage, no sex before marriage, no divorce etc, then what is differentiating you from C of E? Or catholic-lite as I like to think of it?

But faith in God is not the same thing as being a Catholic. I have faith. I am not a Catholic. Catholciism is a religion.

I was born in to a Catholic family. I made a choice, when I became an independent, thinking adult, to leave the religion. Of course you have a choice. You have a brain.

Exactly@quickhide.