To think some Catholics don't understand their own faith

[zombiegames]

Okay I admit a thread about a couple of other threads.

I was brought up Catholic, but am not one now - but I do understand how the way you are brought up as a Catholic gets under your skin. But it does make me angry that other people here who say they are catholics, appear to have so little understanding of their own faith.

The pope is not just someone whose opinion you can dismiss if you are a catholic. He is christs representative on earth and he is infallible - that means he can't be wrong. This is an absolute key part of the one true faith. It is not a side belief that can be conveniently ignored.

So when the pope says for example that gay marriage or using condoms is wrong, that is a belief of the catholic faith and can't just be dismissed. If you say this is wrong, you are saying that the pope is not infallible and thus you are questioning an absolute key part of catholicism.

Why does this anger me? Because a lot of people who are not and have never been catholics don't really understand catholicism as can be seen on here when non catholic parents who send dcs to catholic schools froth on here about what their dcs are being taught. Posters who post about being catholic and non homophobic, are misrepresenting catholicism to those who don't understand it. If the pope says something, then that is part of the catholic faith and is what catholics should believe.

And sorry I probably ABU as I know this is a bit of a rant, even though it is true.

This is such a circular argument...

Of course I understand the effect of culture on religion. That doesnt in any way negate what I have said earlier, sorry.

You cant expect anyone to take you seriously as a Catholic if the only evidence you have for that is that 'you have faith in God'. You have to accept the basic tenets of, and and practice, the religion, surely?

Otherwise, how are you any different from any other Christian? Or from me? Except for the fact that you say you are Catholic?

Surely that makes sense?

Why do people keep arguing against a position they seem to have made up? Endless study in order to be good?

what about muslim women who don't wear burkha and have the odd drink? Do you think they are hypocrites who don't understand their faith? What if they have reservations about shia law?

By the same rationality being displayed on their thread they are not true to their 'core religion'.

is OP the one who was really getting uptight a while ago about gay marriage (there is no NEED! They have civil partnerships!) and couldn't cope with the fact that very few Catholics actually are as homophobic as her/him, even though this makes us cop-outs and hypocrites?

don't know how others resolve this but for me 1. have always known I am rubbish at being a (RC) Christian, it's sort of the way the whole thing is designed, you can't ever really feel that you are doing it right otherwise you are guilty of arrogance whatever sort of Christian you are. 2. Nobody is 100% happy with everything that flows from the Vatican and 3. You have to separate that from your personal walk with God - it's not supposed to be easy. It's sort of the point of it.

it is bizarre sort of black and white thinking to imagine there is no elasticity, or that the church doesn't (painfully slowly) respond to changes in the society around it

We could talk about hypocrisy in all religions, yes, but we are talking about Catholicism specifically.

Feel free to start your own thread about Judism or Islam, by all means.

@fallenmadonna that's exactly it. people expect catholics to behave in a caricaturish way they have made up and decided is what they find 'acceptable for a catholic'. the narrow-minded judgementalism is unbelivable.

Why does it matter to you Betty?

It matters to me only in so much as I am responding to this thread, I suppose.

I don't go around raging against Catholicism in RL just for the sake of it

However, I do support the rights of homosexuals to be equal and free and not disparaged as sinners.

And it does matter to me that the RC chirch preach absolute drivel to uneducated, poverty stricken people in the developing world.

Other than that...

@betty but that is a different argument. And it is a bit pathetic to drag everything back to - oh well teh catholic church are bloody awful.

I htink the catholic church behave appallingly. But the questions was about how much people in the church know about it.

I am deeply uncomfortable with some aspects of zionism and have lost some friends over it. Doens't mean I think the majority of Jewish people don't understand Judaism or are hypocrites.

The thread isn't about raging about Catholicism, it's about raging about people who identify as Catholics but don't follow all the teachings of the church. The OP said she was "angered".

And stating how you differ from those teachings yourself (and I agree with you) doesn't address why you would have a problem with someone like me calling myself a Catholic.

there isn't a person alive who can follow the rules of any given religion without failing or falling short somewhere - that these sorts of eternal goals are impossible to attain is largely the point isn't it

but, and think this has been pointed out already, the core of Roman Catholicism isn't 'don't use condoms, eat meat on Friday or forget to be a homophobe' it's love the lord your god and love your neighbour as yourself

Zionism isnt Judaism@ethelb
I am sorry you have lost friends over religion..

I have made my points above, I think. I cant really keep repeating them!

The core of Christianity is that, yes@Moral. You could be C of E and say those things, though.

Re the post at 16:10- Yes Betty it absolutely does negate what you've said. You're posting about how Catholics who eg disagree with the church stance on gay marriage aren't behaving like Catholics. What you actually mean is that they're not behaving in accordance with Catholic teaching. The two are not the same thing. British Catholics are more liberal on the whole than the Vatican is. This means that the values and behaviours held by the community here aren't the same as those of the Vatican. The issue of whether 'true' Catholic behaviour (or indeed any other religious group) is defined by what the religion teaches or what the adherents do is one of hot academic debate, and there's no simple answer. Hence it's best not to pretend there is. It is a matter of undoubted fact that pro-contraception British Catholics are behaving both in accordance with the typical values of their community, and against the teachings of the church. It is not a matter of undoubted fact that one of these 'trumps' the other in terms of what defines Catholic behaviour. There are both religious and cultural definitions.

Regarding your point about how we expect to be taken seriously, I speak only for myself, but it is a matter of supreme indifference to me what you think of my religious beliefs or indeed lack thereof. When someone tells me they're from a particular background or hold a certain belief, I find it easiest to believe them. Now there's nothing wrong with seeking to distinguish between eg believers, lapsed, cultural Catholics and so on. For example, me and Ann Widdecombe both identify as Catholics, and have virtually nothing in common. It's valid to point that out, but if you seek to dismiss either of our behaviour as not Catholic, expect us both to disgree strongly for totally different reasons. She is not culturally Catholic, I am not doctrinally Catholic- that's the best way to put it.

yes, or a baptist or Methodist or a rabid pro-life spirit filled pentecostalist - what is your point?

I love these nuns

The core of Christianity is going to the be the core of Catholicism of course. Obviously there's more, but my posting those commandments was in response to the suggestion that homophobia was the main point of Catholicism.

You do keep making the same points yes, but they don't answer the question. Why does it matter to you that someone like me identifies as a Catholic?

@betty I know that Zionism doesn't = Judaism!

But how come you are able to make that distinction when you can't make the distinction between core and periphery beleifs in Catholicism. You could equally argue that Jewish people who aren't Zionists are hypocrites as they are picking and chosing.

Ok, to put it simply: What defines you as Catholic, Moral? As opposed to any of the other denominations you have mentioned?

Flangelina, please do feel free to answer, too.

Or you could just keep asking questions that have been answered...

I believe in transubstantiation. I believe some anglo catholics might too. I certainly hope that the priests who defected to catholicism over the ordination of women did, as it is a pretty big deal really. But I can guarantee that the low church vicar down the road does not. Also the seven sacraments. As opposed to two.

Now, about why you care...?

you do know you can't really undo your baptism? and early brainwashing experiences, but I have only recently started attending mass again after trying various other denominations and none at all. For a long time I left the religion bit of forms blank so have had to think about whether this is part of my identity or not, always want to leap to the church's defence but privately obviously find many things about it difficult. It's imperfect, because it's made up of an enormous group of imperfect people and some are doctrinal purists but most are not.

anyway the others were all sort of nice in their way but there is something missing, it is not the same. Especially the Eucharist, but also the Marian devotions - things that many Protestants don't understand or actively abhor.

Do you mean me as an individual Betty or all people? Not to worry, I'll answer both.

I accept and define Catholicism both as a religious and a cultural label. So someone who is a believer is Catholic. So is someone who, like me, was raised within and still identifies with the subculture, or tribe if you like, whether they are believers or not. Particularly if their behaviour and values remain typical of that subculture. Sometimes a person is Catholic in each sense of the term, sometimes not. I reject the idea that either is more Catholic than the other. If someone suggested that my views make me not Catholic, I'd have trouble not laughing, simply because I was raised so utterly seeped in the tribe. In understanding these attitudes, it probably helps to have information about the history and experience of British Catholics. I can provide an overview if it helps.

not sure the churches of Scotland/England whatever are actually all that keen on contraception or gay marriage either though?

lay Catholics think the church belongs to them, not the pope, in the same way that (to use an analogy from Nick Hornby), the Arsenal football team belongs to the fans not the players.

Absolutely. I was born Catholic and there is a strong feminist take on Catholicism which is that the church is made up of the laity and not the property of the clergy (whom, you may remember, are all male). There is also an argument for staying in the church to try and change it, making for a potentially radical church with intelligent, radical feminists in it.

I did stick with it for a while, but am now C of E, where, I am pleased to say, hey have women priests and will soon have women bishops...

Moral - CofE is absolutely fine with contraception. There's a split over gay marriage.

YABU. Any religion which allows no room for discussion and debate can't be healthy. That's what fundamentalism is.