to have put FIL in his place about nursery

[pointbreak]

Out of the blue he announced he thought it was a shame that DD had gone to nursery at 13 months. She goes 3 days a week, 8.30 - 4.30. She is at home with me the other two days and me, DD and DH spend the weekend as a family. She is happy as larry. He now admits it has benefited her but he didn't think that before she went. Please bear in mind MIL worked in a nursery for 12 years.

He went on to tell me that they were lucky as his wife didn't need to work when their DC were young. I pointed out that we didn't NEED me to work, but my career was important to me and just as valid's as his DS's career, so why should I give it all up. I did have PND for the first 6 months of DD's life and we all know that returning to work can help with that.

So, was IBU? What else should I have said? Or not?

'They could become a paediatrician, a midwife, a teacher etc if they have the opportunity, interest and ability'

You do realise that none of these jobs involve being with under 4s all day dont you? How are they alternative careers to nursery nurses? I wanted to work in a nursery as I like spending all my days, hands on with the under 4s and none of your career suggestions give me that option.

say nothing. he i entitled to his opinion and so are you. both are vaild.

Nasty post tryingtoleave.

tinkerbel, can you give us one example of " the crap ones seen upthread." meaning the crap childcare workers?

also can you give us an example of "Some poor childcare staff- just as there are poor people in any job (we've seen the evidence of a fair few on here... Working for years in bad set ups without complaining, and even slagging off the parents who use them!)"

I must have missed the posts by the crap childcare workers who never complained about anything they saw and slagged off parents, can you point them out?

thanks

and to the poster who said childcare workers have few options, this isn't true in all cases, maybe some girls have no option but to work in childcare, but most of us who have worked there are doing it as we feel we can make a difference to the children's lives. I did 2 years training for my qualification, then spent a few years nannying here and abroad before returning to work in a council nursery, which was lovely. Then I got married and moved and took a job in a private nursery which closed down after a few years. I then spent 3 years temping in various nurseries and it was in the private nurseries I experienced things I wouldn't want for my own kids. I still keep in touch with 2 of the families I nannied for years ago and have glowing references from the nurseries I worked in. So please don't think we are all in childcare as we cant do anything else.

You know, these threads would be genuinely interesting if everyone could actually discuss the issue without resorting to open or veiled attacks on other people's parenting choices.

This is one of those areas where everyone will have a different experience because no two children and no two nurseries are the same. It would potentially be very helpful for people to hear about the experiences of others.

Unfortunately this sort of reasoned debate is continually scuppered by the same old thing from some people - if you say anything positive about nurseries then you are "justifying your choices", "incredibly defensive", "protesting too much" - all comments from this thread. Sometimes I read a post and then read one of those sorts of responses and have to check that it is actually referring to the post I just read.

Poster 1: My DS loves nursery - he gets so excited when we arrive.
Poster 2: You clearly feel the need to convince yourself you are doing the right thing - why so defensive?
Me: Eh?

I appreciate that those who feel that nurseries are a Bad Thing are unlikely to have their minds changed, but it would be helpful (and probably lend weight to any arguments that they are putting forward) if they were able to accept that since they haven't seen every nursery in the world, and don't personally know every nursery-attending child in the world, some people's positive experiences are just that - positive. Not defensive. Not delusional. Not secretly wishing they had done it differently. Genuinely positive.

Scottishmummy constantly has comments levelled at her along the lines of "must be insecure about her choices" etc. I have never thought that. I have always thought that she sounds like someone who is getting a bit bored of seeing others constantly attacked for perfectly acceptable choices.

Maybe that's just because I know perfectly well that some children absolutely thrive in a nursery setting and that it is pretty easy to see when that is the case. DS1 has always loved nursery and I actually now have some seriously complicated commuting/work/maternity leave arrangements to allow him to continue to have one day a week at his first nursery, even now we have moved. If we can afford it, DS2 will have at least some nursery time, even if I am not working full-time.

No doubt someone will scream "defensive" at me. It won't be true. Sorry. Just as I am able to accept that not every SAHM is miserable, beaten-down by constant childish yattering and unfulfilled, I also know for a fact that not every nursery parent is secretly dying inside every second that their child is out of their sight.

Different things suit different children and different families. I am not arrogant enough to think that my answers are all the answers.

My only issue with childcare kungfu is that when the child can't speak you just don't know for sure what is happening during the day. The girl I mentioned with CP adored school, yet if her mother could have seen the way she was treated it would have broken her heart. It wasn't major abuse it was just an absence of that extra love and attention a parent gives their child. Older children can handle that I think, they don't expect teachers to show love and care and they understand the school setting is different than home. But I think a young child, under 2, needs that extra care and attention as they are so vulnerable. But I suppose if a parent doesn't want to give that attention then nursery is the next best thing.

Well, it has been clear in all your posts that you love your work Molly, and that is great. But pps were asking why people stay in childcare if they don't love children and don't want to work hard at looking after them. And I find that question very odd. No one would ask why a cleaner, or a factory worker, or some kind of specialist who didn't like their work stayed in their job. They would just presume that they stayed because they didn't have any better option or ability to move jobs. People who use nurseries want to believe that the workers there love their children because they need them to. But for many of those workers it would just be a job.

IME some people go into childcare because they like the feeling of power it gives them. A bunch of three special needs assistants in the school I worked in clearly didn't see the children as people at all. They enjoyed ordering them around, punishing them for very slight infractions and just generally being inflexible with them. Again, it wasn't abusive behaviour, or anything you could report, just a general lack of care. They absolutely did not hate the job, they loved it, because it fed their sense of self-importance. They generally made themselves out to be experts on the children, and would have said they were fantastic carers.

"Different things suit different children and different families. I am not arrogant enough to think that my answers are all the answers."

No, and you seem all the more rational for it, pannda. And not defensive at all, at least to me. :) I couldn't agree with you more.

Sottishmummy, however, is arrogant enough to think just that.

Great post kungfu. I don't see scottishmummy as defensive. I never really see her as defensive on her posts on any thread TBH. She may be brusque and to the point, but that doesn't make her defensive. I actually pretty much get the impression she doesn't give a shit as to what people think of her choices.

TBH, although I don't agree with her, I don't find sm arrogant at all

she is very firm in her beliefs and its worked out well for her and her family

I like reading her posts, and Xenia' s posts, as they are so extremely opposite my views

I like hearing another persons viewpoint, because I know better than anyone my viewpoint isn't shared by everyone and sometimes on here it broadens your view when another poster shares her opinion and makes you think twice about something

What I don't like is when someone deliberately turns another posters viewpoint around and uses it to attack them, taking what they said out of context, for the benefit of their own agenda, that to me is arrogant

when I see sm posting on a thread it makes me want to read it as her answers are usually short and snippy and to the point, which I like, not like my long winded ramblings

scottishmummy ..your comment

"frankly I never quite believe the worked in a nursery expose
usually formulaic, and I wonder if embellished
like story by numbers

I struggle that if worker saw bad practice they'd ignore and not at least anonymously report"

i have exposed nurseries to OFSTED, they do NOTHING ... and guess what my career in childcare now is over...as i am seen to be a whistleblower and all because i care about children and staff..and i dont want to be part of the private system where children are seen as pound signs when they come through the door

i believe the problem lies with OFSTED...complaints arent taken seriusly enough...(like they dont think you would risk your job to tell all and not be taken seriously)...complaints to OFSTED need to be taken more seriously...not a visit in a few days/weeks when the dust has settled but within 24 hrs like there would be if it was a complaint to social servies...they should respond

SM you are determined to believe that people who've worked in less than ideal nurseries are lying. Why would they? Just because you don't want something to be true, it doesn't follow that other people are lying.

I think that if you get really good child care, then your children will be fine. The difficulty, when you are a first time parent, is in finding that really good child care. You don't know when you first leave your child there, exactly what their experiences will be. You are taking a lot on trust. That was a risk I wasn't prepared to take with a non verbal child and it is a risk, unless you are using a nursery/cm that you have personal experience of. I also wanted my children to only be cared for by people who loved them and I wasn't going to get that from paid child care. I accept that was my personal preference and other people don't feel that aspect is necessary, so long as the child is physically cared for properly.

There is a terrible attitude towards people who look after children, be they sahm or child care workers. Interestingly, I was chatting to a mum at school a while back - she was sweetness and light until I mentioned that I used to be a cm. I could see her mentally reassessing me as someone of a lower class/intelligence level. If it wasn't so insulting, her blatant snobbery would have been funny. I know her attitude towards me would have been completely different if the conversation had followed an alternate route and I'd mentioned that I'd also been a teacher.

Looking after children is relentless and mentally draining you do need to be the 'right' sort of person to do it well (when they are not your children and you don't have the natural bond with them). CM wasn't the job for me - it bored me rigid. I am only cut out to look after my own dc. There should be more respect given to people who can do it day in and day out.

Would also like to respond the comment up thread (sorry, forgotten who posted it) that being a sahm involves running around after everyone else. Not if you do it properly, it doesn't. Part of my role as a sahm is in teaching my children how to become independent and not take other people for granted.

" But I suppose if a parent doesn't want to give that attention then nursery is the next best thing."

You see, Cailindana, this is exactly what I mean. Your post was perfectly reasonable and then you stick this on the end, as though that is the sole reason for people using nurseries. SOME people might not want to give attention. Others might be confident that a nursery is a positive experience, not just "the next best thing". You obviously don't feel that nursery is the right thing for small children, but it is a bit of a stretch to suggest that people who feel differently simply don't "want" to give care and attention to their children, when there are plenty of people on this thread explaining their own reasons perfectly rationally and plausibly.

And I am utterly confident in DS's nursery because they have always had an open door policy. If you want to check in during the day, you do so. If you arrive early there is never any suggestion that you should have given them notice. There are two doors, each opening directly into one of the rooms, so what you see going on is exactly what was going on five minutes ago. What is usually going on in the baby room is a lot of cuddling and interaction, and what is going on in the toddler and pre-shool room is a lot of happy controlled chaos! I suppose I could just have been spectacularly unlucky and always arrived at the exact moment when children were getting their only bit of care and attention for the entire day, but I'm pretty sure that isn't the case.

And the thing about non-verbal children is that they generally become verbal older children. My DS now tells me what has happened at nursery. "Had a bump. [key-worker] cuddled me better." Obviously that is only helpful retrospectively, but we chose a nursery where people we knew had older, verbal children who had been happy there and could say so. The fact that we know one of the staff slightly through friends also helped.

It is inherently very arrogant to state that your individual one size should fit all.

And completley daft to say that motherhood is a job fit for no-one... whilst also singing the praises of the nursery workers who do a fair bulk of the job instead.

Kungfu, there are a few people on the thread who said they didn't want to stay at home and look after their children, they wanted to go to work instead. That was what I was referring to when I said if you don't want to look after your children then nursery is the next best thing. Unless you're not a great parent I don't think nursery is equivalent to being looked after by a parent, do you?

I havant worked in a nursery or had experience of one but when i was 18 i did work in a very posh old peoples home.

The difference between reality and how the relis were treated when visting were vast. i wasnt trained properly, often left to lift people when two were supposed to be there etc etc. As a young naive 18 year old who was desperate to earn some money before uni - i did raise my concerns, but not in a professional way ( as i didnt know how too), I just mentioned that i thought the treatment of some people was unfair. Guess what, I was pushed out soon after, and so was the other sweet kind girl who actually cared.

Since then, I have often added my experience which goes into alot more details, to various things and now of course its all come out how badly the elderly are treated.

did anyone see panorama, where the mum was slapped and that home was given a very good rating wasnt it by QCC.

some people have been slated on here by simply trying to give thier honest appraisal of what SOME work is like behind closed doors.

to me they are not saying all nurseries are bad or people are bad for putting thier children in them, they just say BEWARE, be observant....

My experience of old peoples homes would not put me off if my parent had to go in one HOWEVER, it will make me thourghly check it out,.....lots of unnacounced visits...

we should be applauding the people who have come on here for letting us know - reminding us that sometimes not is all as it seems.....we should be encouraging people to tell us the truth, for blowing whistles etc.

the QCC is not fit for purpose we cant rely on that. with anyone who is vulnerable, elderly - diabled and children......just be more aware and vigilant!

I am not attacking anyone. I stated that I believe a child under two needs personal attention from their parents. Some parents choose not to give that attention but to pay someone else to give it instead. That's just a fact. In my view the attention given by a childcare worker is not the same as that given by a parent, it is the next best thing. That is just my opinion. Annakin, do you feel the attention given by a nursery worker is the same as that given by a parent?

cailin what an awful statement to make...some parents HAVE to go back to work..sahm is not an option to some..and as for your comments regarding nursery nurses and attention..you astound me...there are some of out there that really do care

I disagree that it's an "awful statement" doormat. I am certain there are fantastic nursery workers out there. What I said was that the attention of a nursery worker is not the same as that of a parent. Perhaps some people think it is. I just don't see how the care given by the person who made the baby (be it mum or dad) and bonded with it from birth could be the same as the care given by someone who is paid to look after it. It's just not the same. That's not an awful statement, that's just something I believe to be true.

Some people have no choice to go back to work, and I think they make the best of what they have. I clearly stated in my post that some parents choose not to look after their children.

Fair enough Annakin. You want her to go to nursery instead of staying at home with you. That's the same thing. If you wanted to keep her at home with you, you would. That's just a fact. I don't see what's so bad about saying that.

just because you havent given birth to a child doesnt mean you dont have an attachment to the said child... i have many parents of the children that have been in my care ( or that i have been payed to look after as you would see it) on fb and i still love to see the pics of the children and how they are growing up... i cant count how many nice comments i have had back from said parents thanking me for treating their children with the greatest, care, respect and fondness..they know i think highly of their children and that i do care about them..i have been invited to childrens birthday parties etc as i have been part of the said childs life...stop making all nursery nurses look so bloody clinical as a job..there are alot of us out there that dont just shut off at the end of the day.