This has made me so angry..working mums, we are the devils work

[sh1t]

I read this, and wish I hadn't

paid strangers to look after our kids

I sort of get the sentiment behind it, but the tone of smuggery just irks me, and the post is so skewed to mums, what about dads. The author claims she is a feminist, but I can't see it.

Shagmundfreud - I don't go out to work just for the sake of the mortgage! Of course child are has it's problems . But there is good quality child care available - it just costs a lot. And what about what happens a lot in other cultures where the grandparents play a greater role. Makes sense for a lot of people.

Arrggghh that is so annoying - Shagmund that is crap. Of course childcare has its problems - as does parenthood. The simple fact is that the only ideal is the one that works best for the family involved - if you need and want to work do so. If you dont, dont. The real crux of the matter is that women in this recession are being deliberately pitted against each other by quite simply the most mysodgynistic government in decades and the truth is that the freedom to choose is just that. A choice. Feminism was never about having it all. It was about the right to choose the circumstances of our lives and how ironic that it is no longer men putting us down but each other.

The other thing that pisses me off is how working mothers, or SAHMs are respectively blamed for all of societies ills. By focussing on women in this way we completely disregard the rights and responsibilities of fathers. Men are not secondary, they exist and are as equally responsible for the outcomes of their childrens lives but I dont EVER see a man come on here and feel he has to justify himself for working or not. Bloody disappointing thats what it is.

Surely I am not the only one who has found quality childcare?

I prefer using a nursery to a childminder and our nursery is absolutely fantastic (DD1 went 3 days a week, DD2 will go 2). 32 kids max over 4 four rooms with a core set of staff who are really experienced and really care. The deputy manager recently left after 11 years there and most of the moms were in tears on her last day. They also have a balance of less experienced workers as they are set up as a teaching nursery so the kids have a mix of stability and new people to get to know.

They hate me saying it, but it feels like a large childminders - it's based in a big Victorian house and has a wonderful homely feel. They have also done loads of work on it recently including new bathroom and converted the basement into a purpose built art room.

DD1 started there when she was 8 months old and her development was amazing. She is very shy, but we never had any separation anxiety issues and she always looked forward to going - in fact, she is in school nursery now, but often asks if she can go back for a day in the holidays (they have a hoiliday club) and keeps telling me how she misses her key worker.

agree with prettyfly.

I found that article patronising and annoying, it's clearly by someone with sufficient wealth to be kept comfortably at home and has totally missed the point of why good quality affordable childcare is necessary.

My DP and I both work and yet if I tell anyone how much our child are costs, they ask "is it worth you working?" they never ask if it's worth HIM working.....

These debates kinda pass me by as I am working to pay the mortgage and therefore DD3 is in nursery two days and with MIL another day. Itdoesn't matter how fulfilling motherhood is, bills still have to be paid. And if my kids are getting a less than perfect upbringing well they will have to deal with it. At least they have a stable family home, food and parents not ill with worry about paying the bills.

prettyfly I could not agree more.

shag I think if any parent thought that an inexperience and cold youngster was giving inadequate care to their baby they would change it in a heartbeat. I think your experiences are rare?!

claredetamble yes I can see what you are saying...I am a walking wounded, therefore perhaps an invalid parent??

You know what, when I walk round Sweden (where pretty much ALL kids are in childcare by the age of 12 months), I'm always thinking what a nation of psychologically damaged individuals they all are, all tormented and bitter and unable to function effectively.

Not.

(Or, if they are, I would personally blame the influence of Roxette, rather than working parents)

No one ever wants to feel that the choices they have made in life might not be utterly flawless, so it is natural to defend/justify what you do, be it sah or woh. She does have a point in that the role of a sahm is valued so little by society and that has made her come across as very defensive. I think in her cack handed way, she is not saying that 'this is all I have to offer,, that is enough', more that she had a choice and feels she has made the right one and it shouldn't be treated by the likes of Nick Clegg as if it is nothing. There is a perception (certainly amongst politicians) that the only worthwhile work is that which directly generates money! It is hurtful, as a sahm, to have people think that children won't develop a work ethic if their mother doesn't have paid employment. I'm sure it is equally hurtful for wohm to hear people say that using paid child care will damage their children, so we ought to stop saying these things to each other.

Where this article goes wrong is in implying that wohm just pluck some random stranger off the street and dump the kids on them, or that the kids whose parents use nurseries are comparable to the damaged people she worked with as a therapist.

I am a sahm - I think it is important for children to be looked after by people who love them. I couldn't guarantee that a CM would, so for me, I wanted my children to be looked after by myself or my mum, especially in their early years. Other people will have found child care that they consider provides a loving, caring environment.

We really do have to stop behaving as if our choice was the only possible 'right' one and everybody else is just 'wrong'.

posh Yes! WTF is that all about?!

I think it was on here that suggested that we start saying the child care is a 6th,8th, 3rd of "our household income". Shift the paradigm and all that.

Oh dont let it bother you OP! really

opinions are like arseholes, everyone's got one

be happy in your choices

I sense that blog writer cant be 100% happy in her choice, hence the heated response. why does she give a shit what everyone else does! mweh

I'm afraid she lost my vote at the point where she started talking about the Walking Wounded:

A Walking Wounded person might cry a river of tears over the fact that their father went away for three days without explanation when they were six, or that their mother's hugs were always slightly brittle and reluctant.

I fail to see what this has to do with whether mothers work and use childcare or stay at home. Surely this scenario could happen with either WOHPs or SAHPs.

Indeed, this is where therapists fail society. Encouraging people to believe they are hard done by because something didn't quite go their way when they were a kid.

"The simple fact is that the only ideal is the one that works best for the family involved - if you need and want to work do so"

If a parent WANTS to work but the only option they can find is a private nursery with a high staff turnover (as many do) then they have to accept that their baby is getting a shit deal.

But that's ok, because the parents are getting what they want, and the baby can't talk and express his or her feelings.

And babies and small children are natural optimists. You see this in developing countries - really poor children with smiles all over their faces, because despite the fact their lives are a bit shit, they're children and they're natural optimists. They protest about situations they dislike at first, but then they knuckle down and get on with it.

There are lots of parents who want to work but don't because they feel that putting their child in a nursery isn't going to be a particularly nice experience for them. They figure that you're only a baby once, and that a baby being REALLY happy and content is worth the sacrifice of a few years of being skint and a bit frustrated.

Obviously if you can't pay the mortgage or have a reasonable quality of life without both of you working then so be it. Baby has to put up with whatever's chosen for them, good or shit.

And personally I don't care which parent cares for a child - I just think that it's best for a BABY to spend most of their time in the care of someone who LOVES THEM, or at least has a strong emotional attachment to them, and is prepared to stick around for a few years.

karma i really liked what you said, and I think that how you have articulated your choice is perfect. You made a decision that fits your home life. Nuff said. I totally accept that the ££ attached to what we do is of higher value than the action itself. We live in a very materialistic society. sigh.

squiffy "Blame Roxette" needs to be on a t-shit I think

shag

are you TRYING to upset people here! come on, we are in a double dip recession, unless couples are very lucky, both have to work to come extent

youi imply that for EVERY working parent there is a sibbing newborn in nursery, being ignored by feckless 18 years olds nippin on fag breaks!

what are you really trying to say

"Encouraging people to believe they are hard done by because something didn't quite go their way when they were a kid."

I think what she's referring to is the growing body of evidence that patterns of care in very early childhood (0 to 3) actually set the 'hard wiring' of the brain, and this can influence the child's ability to regulate their emotions as they grow into adulthood.

There's certainly a growing body of evidence that emotional neglect in infancy is strongly linked to depression and anxiety in adulthood.

Obviously most children, even in the crappiest group childcare, aren't damaged in such a way that it's impossible for loving and responsive parenting at other times to make good some of the damage that's being done, but even so..... I think the argument that optimal care in early infancy promotes healthy emotional development in later life is pretty solid.

shag I doubt anyone would disagree with what you say here...
^And personally I don't care which parent cares for a child - I just think that it's best for a BABY to spend most of their time in the care of someone who LOVES THEM, or at least has a strong emotional attachment to them, and is prepared to stick around for a few years.^

back to the article....I do wonder how the author finds time to tweet, blog, write, FB etc etc whilst devoting herself to her children? There must be some element of compromise there?

I do truly feel that I have the best of both worlds working part-time in a job that I enjoy and that provides me with new challenges each day. My childcare arrangements are great between dh, grandparents and a fab childminder. I take my hat off to SAHMs as it would not be my choice, even if money was no object. Dd is well-adjusted and happy and that is my main priority. The author of the letter does not take into account that financial necessity is frequently the reason that most women work, often in jobs they hate. It's so irritating that fathers are not mentioned in many discussions around SAHM / WOHMs - IMO dh is just as important in our dd's life as I am and he spends time with her accordingly.

I think the argument that optimal care in early infancy promotes healthy emotional development in later life is pretty solid.

The "and only a mother staying at home can do this" however is pretty tenuous.

Shag but it really isn't always black and white.

I trained for about 8 years to do my job and had a further 4 years of temporary contracts making my way in the field to do what I do. I want children but I am not going to give up work - if I do, I'd never get another job in my field (or highly unlikely).

I don't think the kind of massive sacrifice it would be for me balances effectively against not putting a baby into paid childcare. Frankly, it is not about paying the mortgage - I think women are bigger than just being mothers.

Anyone can find an anecdote to support their position. The brightest and most outgoing child I know has been in f/t childcare since 6 mos old. He is 4, speaks two languages, is learning the piano, and approaches strangers in the street to tell them excitedly that his mum is pg again. I don't believe he has been damaged at all by that experience and is likely in fact to socialise much better in school than many children.

Its weird that memories of the 1950s seem to airbrush out working class and lower middle class women who have always worked..

There's certainly a growing body of evidence that emotional neglect in infancy is strongly linked to depression and anxiety in adulthood.

Nursery care=depression?

links to research please?

Whatme yes. The nursery I am looking at has its own swimming pool, a sports instructor who comes, pet animals, two gardens, and a sensory play area. Really, I do not think any child of mine will be disadvantaged there compared to being at home!

Shag I think the situation you are talking about absolutely does arise but the simple fact is that very often the mothers who go to work because they "want" to would be miserable at home. Dissatisfied, sad and lonely, which does not lead to happy fulfilled babies, it leads to depression and misery. Perhaps instead of suggesting that these women should feel guilty for depriving their chilren of loving parents we should be focussing on creating the same sort of model as in Sweden (which someone else mentioned already) where the care is absolutely second to none and children are put at the heart of what we do. Improving the standards of childcare in ALL settings (which actually I dont agree with you on - I know of some absolutely fantastic childcare settings - I also know of some awful ones, thats life) where possible to benefit all children.

Love doesnt equate to brilliant mothering - it means making the right choice for your family regardless of what everyone else thinks and for every individual who quotes this survey or that figure, or passes guilt tripping judgement on people who have absolutely no choice in the matter in many circumstances, there are just as many who quote damage and issues for the women who choose to stay at home.

And in my experience children of stay at home mums regularly feel the pressure of being the entire focus of mums world in exactly the same way children of working mums wish they had been there a bit more. Not ALL children but some. You cant get it right sometimes no matter what you do and its human nature to want what you didnt have. As parents the only thing we can do is what we need to to survive and to keep ourselves and our kids as healthy and happy - noone else has the right to judge that.