...to think all the good men against sexual violence should make a big noise!

[Berts]

I know this probably isn't entirely fair, and loads of people will now come on and cheer my heart with all their examples of men campaigning against rape and sexual violence, but it really does seem like an issue dominated by women and female-led organisations.

AIBU to ask all those good men (and I know you're out there) who are horrified by sexual violence and the awful treatment of victims in our society to join in the debates, the arguments, the discussions? It's not a 'women's issue'!

Us girls may 'hold up half the sky', but we can't do without you, the other half. Sexual violence distorts the whole of society and fucks up the natural dynamic between men and women. So condemn it wherever you see it reported! Get on Twitter and slag off Connor Brown! Campaign for better sentencing and the busting of rape myths! Stand up with us!

Of course they are. They've just been raped. It's a horrible experience that results in people being emotionally damaged and suffering PTSD. They are exactly the sort of people you don't want to place the responsibility of reporting a crime on. Unfortunately, they're the only ones who can do it. I'd argue that if they saw a rape they'd report it, or intervene, because at that point they'd be emotionally controlled.

Basil - I point you towards RobinSure's link. Using phrases like" look at all the rapists who have got off " is ridiculous. If they have not been convicted you have no business branding them rapists. Or are you suggesting that contrary to all other offences anyone accused of rape is guilty until proven innocent?

DPrince - I didn't state that I was being unfair, I stated that THAT WAS NOT WHAT I SAID AND IT WAS NOT WHAT I MEANT.

Please, please show me the portion of my OP that says that men who are not actively campaigning, are condoning rape. That's not what I said.

This is a man-positive post, saying that most men are great so please show us how great you are.

In fact, this demonstrates most of the problem with engaging men in the debates around rape conviction rates, societal attitudes, etc.

As soon as you start talking to a man about it, most of them seem to get very uncomfortable and feel they are being blamed or accused of condoning rape. No matter what you say or how you put it, all some people hear is 'All men are rapists' or 'All men are at least a little bit to blame', even if that's not what you said and not even what you implied.

So once more, for those at the back or hard of hearing, there is nothing in my OP that says that men have to come out against rape, or they are condoning it. I didn't say it, I didn't imply it, I didn't mean it. So there.

I was just suggesting it would be great if they did!

Londonone - you can't be "proved innocent", you just haven't been found guilty. Some people obviously are found not guilty when they actually committed the crimes, and the whole thing comes out later.

Quite frankly Berts, men who demand this kind of soft-soaping and "oh we didn't mean YOU, most men are LOVELY, have some TEA" treatment are just time-wasters. They're probably never going to realise that they're missing the point and making the crime of rape against women all about the poor maligned men. I hate to say it, because I like to think the best of everyone usually. It's a waste of women's time to dance around them, time better spent supporting actual rape victims or engaging men who have the humility and awareness not to demand apologies for made-up implications.

Christ no. If the law says you're not guilty, you're innocent. That's the whole point of the law. If you throw that out of the window, you might as well just give up and read the daily mail.

Thanks Elephants, I just wanted to be REALLY CLEAR. I hate it when people say I've made statements that I haven't made, or project their own weirdness onto me. Hmph.

Yes in the eyes of the law you are innocent if you have been found not guilty. But in the eyes of the actual truth not everyone found not guilty is innocent of the crime. Sometimes there are retrials years later and an "innocent" person (talking any crime here) is found guilty and sent to prison. They haven't gone back in time 20 years and committed the crime, they were guilty all along, but evidence or courtroom failings sometimes prevent justice or postpone it.

Do you see?

*lack of evidence

Actually elephants you are innocent until proven guilty in English law. That is the default setting. Scotland slightly different as they have the "not proven" verdict.

"Some people obviously are found not guilty when they actually committed the crimes, and the whole thing comes out later."

Of course, but I think we have to generally stick to the principal of innocent until proven guilty, it is rather a mainstay of our legal system!

Isn't it amazing how many things we get to discuss:

• the rights and wrongs of twitter
• what "not guilty" means
• whether I implied that men are entirely responsible for fighting bullying in general
• whether the OP thinks men largely condone rape

None of it at all relevant to the actual OP which was ENCOURAGING MEN TO SPEAK UP AGAINST SEXUAL VIOLENCE.

In what way is that controversial? Wouldn't it be nice if more men said "you know what, I've got a powerful voice - hell yeah I'll use it."?

Of course I see, there's no need to be patronising. But it's vital to be neutral until there is proof either way, and I think you're bad at that.

And not everyone found guilty actually commited the offence!

Sometimes conversations and debates go off on a tangent, Sorry if you can't cope with that elephants.

The number of false rape allegations, is somewhere between 2 percent and 8 percent.

That means a minimum of 90 percent of men who are accused of rape, have done it.

However, only 6% of all rape allegations, end in a guilty conviction.

That that means the vast vast vast majority of men who have been accused of rape who walked free, are actually rapists.

HTH

Could we get back to the original point though? It would be nice to hear what people think (especially male peeps) now that we have established that (a) I don't hate men and (b) I don't want to encourage anyone to post abusive messages on Twitter.

"it's vital to be neutral until there is proof either way, and I think you're bad at that." I was only weighing in to correct the common statement that you can't possibly talk about rapists sometimes getting away with rape.

I can cope, londonone, thanks for being so patronising. Have you got anything to say about the OP?

The number of false rape allegations, is somewhere between 2 percent and 8 percent.

Basil, is that false rape allegations in court cases, or from all reported rape ?

If the latter I'm interested in where those figures came from.

Stern Inquiry MrGin, I think.

"ENCOURAGING MEN TO SPEAK UP AGAINST SEXUAL VIOLENCE.

In what way is that controversial? Wouldn't it be nice if more men said "you know what, I've got a powerful voice - hell yeah I'll use it."?"

I'd agree but I don't think this is an issue specific to the male gender. When issues such as male victims of DV (or the lack of male shelters or funding for the problem) or the fact that a specfic female group are marching against lack of funds for women vitcim but not men, has arisen on this site I've seen posters who identify themselves as feminists state opinions along the lines of

"well do they expect women to sort out their problem for them aswell/what's to stop them organising their own group/ nothing is stopping them from supporting or establishing facilities it themselves"

Unfortunately I think there's a natural draw prevelance for all people to look after issues which directly affects their own gender/sexuality/race/economic class/age group/any other demographic, first and give it paramount importance.

Stern Inquiry MrGin, I think.

But how can anyone know how many rape allegations are false without them going to court ?

"The number of false rape allegations, is somewhere between 2 percent and 8 percent.

That means a minimum of 90 percent of men who are accused of rape, have done it."

That's not what it means though is it?
It means that between 2 and 8 % of rapes reported are deliberately false or made in bad faith and knowingly untrue.
Out of the 90% remaining there could be a multitude of factors which means that a claim has been made in good faith but the man was not guilty of rape.

I know what you're takling about Mayorquimby but the fact is women HAVE set up the structures to talk about and help rape victims, and men do not, largely, join in with it. If there was a charity with a campaign to raise awareness of male rape I would totally publicise and support it, but there are groups like this existing for women, that men don't support.

Also of course men are not shy about getting involved in structures that have some sway over how this issue is handled. Plenty of men in the law, in the police, in parliament etc. Plenty of male bosses at work. These men largely leave it to their female colleagues to raise the issue, and it's not good enough.

Which is fair enough Elephants, and I do agree with you and am involved in the areas which you speak of (not going to go into whether I have any personal involvment or do support such groups, because as was pointed out earlier this thread isn't about men posting to get brownie points or be told how good we are.)

Like I said Elephants I don't think there's anything controversial to stating men should speak up against sexual assault, however I was just pointing out that I think it's an unfortunate trait of the human condition that even though an issue which affects a different gender/race/age group/social class etc. does have a huge affect on all of us due to family/friends etc. unless a person is the person who is directly targetted or affected they are often less active.
Not quite apathetic as for the most part they'll still vehemently condemn it, but they're not quite on the frontline or making life difficult at work because their colleague said something inappropriate, much easier to write them off as a xenophobic/sexist/racist twat and bitch about them then get into a stand-up argument in the break room when you know they'll most likely never change their mind.

no mayor quimby it means that the other allegations are reported.
rapes. Contrary to the rape myth you've just repeated, women are not so bloody stupid that they think they've been raped when in fact, they have just been chatted up. on the contrary, barring the tiny number of false allegations, women are far more likely to persuade themselves they haven't been raped when they have, than to persuade themselves that they have been raped, when they haven't. The belief that it is the other way round, is a rape myth.