...to think all the good men against sexual violence should make a big noise!

[Berts]

I know this probably isn't entirely fair, and loads of people will now come on and cheer my heart with all their examples of men campaigning against rape and sexual violence, but it really does seem like an issue dominated by women and female-led organisations.

AIBU to ask all those good men (and I know you're out there) who are horrified by sexual violence and the awful treatment of victims in our society to join in the debates, the arguments, the discussions? It's not a 'women's issue'!

Us girls may 'hold up half the sky', but we can't do without you, the other half. Sexual violence distorts the whole of society and fucks up the natural dynamic between men and women. So condemn it wherever you see it reported! Get on Twitter and slag off Connor Brown! Campaign for better sentencing and the busting of rape myths! Stand up with us!

In which case basil if you are correct rape would have a 100% conviction rape at court. Or is it perhaps slightly more complex than you are suggesting?

1 of the ways in which men can help women with regards to rape, is not repeating rape myths whenever they get the chance

Basil. I don't understand how anyone knows how many rape allegations are false and how many are genuine. i.e. your 2 - 8 % figure.

Is that a general calculation applied to all reported crime ?

... don't worry. found it on Wikipedia

your logic is odd londonone and I don't follow it

"Contrary to the rape myth you've just repeated, women are not so bloody stupid that they think they've been raped when in fact,they have just been chatted up."

which is not what I've said at all. The figure regarding falsely reported crimes of all natures reflects just that, crimes which have been delberately reported falsely or with no basis of good faith.
This does not automatically mean that all other crimes reported which are not deemed to be false are; true or prove the guilt of the person accused or reflect accurately exactly what happened. All it means is that the accusation has been made in good faith and believed by the person making the claim to be true.
This goes across the board for rape,assault,robbery and so on.
There is a problem with what juries accept as being fact in rape cases as oppossed to many other crimes, but the representation that because a reported crime has not been deemed to be falsely reported that it must be true is mental gymnastics.
The term "false" pertains to the reporting of the crime and the motivation behind it being reported, it does not go to the substance of the actus reua or mens rea which still must be proved.

I have no problem with people criticising the rape conviction statistics, they are deplorable.
Similarly no problems with efforts to debunk rape myths, I feel that far from needing legal reform it is soceital education which is the only viable solution to the poor way in which soceity is dealing with rape allegations.

However the claim that because 2-8% of claims are false reporting, the remaining 90% are getting away with a crime they have committed is a misrepresentation and is simply not proven.

*reus

Just as a point of order, the conviction rate for rape is 58%. That is of cases that make it to court 58% end in conviction. which is higher than any other crime.

The 6% is the attrition rate.

why do you care about technical niceties?most rapists getting away with it, is most rapists getting away with it, call it attrition, conviction, misogyny - whatever you want really. It all adds up to men getting away with raping women.

im not sure what youre actually asking "men" to do?
I dont see many people being particularly vocal about the subject, male or female.

Are you saying they should be organising demonstrations or something?
Writing blogs? Or maybe sending around those viral facebook pictures or something?
What do you mean by being vocal about the subject?

"why do you care about technical niceties?"

Just to be clear;
statistics when they're part the point you're making = important facts

statistics used to counter your arguments = technical niceties?

It's not technical niceties, it's the law. Or do you think we should dispense with trials and evidence completely and just lock any man up who is accused of rape. After all you are convinced that all the allegations are accurate, why not just lock them up straight away?

It it's true that over 90% of people accused of rape are guilty, and I've no reason to believe it isn't.

Why not just find all these men guilty or change the 'beyond all reasonable doubt' maxim and then the message would soon get across.

Yes great idea, why not dispense with the judicial system altogether, perhaps we could just lock people up on the basis of one persons say so. How long for I wonder? Not sure? Best make it life, better to be safe than sorry. FFS

think you may have missed some sarcasm there

Who from? Not sure alittlemoretime was being sarcastic. I really hope they were!

I presumed the post suggesting locking up anyone accused of a crime or else getting rid of the beyond all reasonable doubt was being sarcastic.

This debate has taken a fascinating turn but to return to the OP's original point:

What do any of the male posters on here 'who are horrified by sexual violence and the awful treatment of victims in our society [think they could do] to join in the debates, the arguments, the discussions?' about this issue?

Otherwise I'll think you are just trying to divert the discussion and you have to agree that it's not worth engaging with people who continue to accidentally or wilfully miss the point.

Off you go then...

why are you people so angry about it being pointed out, that's most men accused of rape, are indeed rapists?

and why are you pretending that pointing it out, is the same as saying that we should do away with the rule of law?

I fear not!

"presumed innocent until proven guilty" is a legal position that ensures that the Crown has to prove to a jury beyond reasonable doubt that the defendant committed the crime. If a jury is steeped in rape myths, then the Crown's job is much harder, hence the CPS often won't take the risk of a trial. And if a jury is rape-mythed, then acquittal certainly doesn't mean that the crime was not committed.

For rape victims to achieve justice, then rape myths should be challenged at every turn. For why men should be stepping up in greater numbers than they are, see Pan's earlier post.

This thread illustrates perfectly how rape and rape victims are dealt with by society

People won't even engage with the subject when its shoved up their noses

So many twists and turns. It's depressing

"why are you people so angry about it being pointed out, that's most men accused of rape, are indeed rapists? "

Don't think I've gotten angry once. Was perplexed by how your use of a statistic was taken as proof of something but when I challenged your use of the statistic somehow it became "technical niceties."

Basil -Once again we come back to the logical end point being that as apparently all men accused of rape are de facto rapists then surely we should just lock them all up with no further thought. You are very convinced of their guilt so why would you have a problem with locking them up straightaway.

Yes, it would be ace if men could stand in solidarity with women against rapists and perpetrators of sexual violence in general.

I mean as opposed to looking the other way at best, and spouting rape myths and victim blaming at worst. (Or derailing discussions about how vital male solidarity is to ending sexual violence rather than discussing the ways men can help end that sexual violence).

Well said Pan - and also thanks for the live demonstration of the weight society gives to the male voice. Enjoy your cookies (I mean that amicably.)