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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask the vicar and his wife to speak to the parents of a 'new' very badly behaved boy

157 replies

pingu2209 · 15/04/2012 15:29

Today I went to church. We are regular church goers and today was their monthly family service held in the local secondary school, rather than within the church itself. There are 2 things going on: messy church for the children and cafe church for the adults.

The church still has another normal family service each month within the church, this service is different in that there is no singing and there is a lot of messy play activities with a Christian theme.

I really love my church. It is very friendly and a great mix of ages. There are all sorts of activities laid on for all the age groups.

However, today I was really shocked by the behaviour of one child at church whose family have only just started to attend the services. To be frank his behaviour totally spoiled the morning for me and my children.

The boy is about 7 or 8 and he was extremely unruely and agressive. He punched my 6 year old in the chest, kicked my 4 year old and kept pushing my (and other) children out of the way when he wanted to get to something. I finally snapped when he grabbed my 6 year old's jumper and started to throw it around and kick it across the hall. He had picked it up from a chair at the back of the hall, where I had put it folded up.

I watched him for a while opened mouthed at his behaviour and wondering why the parents wouldn't say anything. His father just sat there drinking coffee in another room and his mother wasn't there.

The very young children were shoved and pushed and at one point I had to see if a boy was okay because this one child had shoved him with his shoulder. He started to cry and went back to his mum in the other room. Then 2 other younger children asked to go back to their parents, but these 2 children I know well and they would normally stay.

After a while, other parents in the messy church started to make comments regarding the child's behaviour and were jokingly saying "I wonder who had Smarties for breakfast..." that kind of comment.

Eventually the leader of the messy church said that all the children were to go back to their parents in the cafe church (other room) and asked me to give the parents a 5 minute warning. I said that it was difficult as there was a talk being given to the parents. To which, the church leader said that she had no choice but to give the children back as it was becoming chaos. I had to agree with her - but it was all due to this one child!

I was then told that the boy in question was going to start going to the church group on a Wednesday evening during term time. My children love going to this group, but there is no way I will let them go if this boy attends and displays the same behaviour. I had made my mind up to speak to the vicar and his wife (who run the Wednesday church group).

Having read a comment in another thread where the mum felt that the church she attends treated her and her child badly as they told her son off for bad behaviour, I wonder if speaking to the vicar is reasonable.

As Christians we should be tollerant, and as a church as a whole we need to be tollerant of children's behaviour that isn't 'perfect' because it will put off families attending the church. I myself have faced the rolling of eyes and tutting of older (age 60+) parisheners when my children have played after the service. Certainly my children's behaviour can be less than I would wish it to be but the boy today made my 3 look like angels - no mean feat!!!

However, surely it is for parents to teach their child that behaviour that is acceptable in one situation is not acceptable in another. The other thread regarding hiding behind a curtain etc is extreme - but this boy is hitting, kicking and shoving other children. He is very loud and shouts over the adults speaking.

Before you ask - no he doesn't have learning difficulties (because I asked around this morning).

So am I unreasonable to speak to the vicar?

OP posts:
pinkpyjamas · 15/04/2012 18:26

If a child was hurting my child, I would deal with it. Fairly and firmly.

If the behaviour didn't stop, I'd seek out the person responsible for the child, and ask them to address it.

I wouldn't expect (or need!) someone running a kid's club to deal with it on my behalf - that is a crap excuse.

I wouldn't expect the vicar (or his wife, fgs!) to listen to me blethering on about it, either.

It is not an earth-shattering event, it just requires the grown ups present to act like responsible adults.

More backbones and less gossip sound the order of the day here.

pingu2209 · 15/04/2012 18:28

gettinghappy - none of us are perfect and your scenario seems reasonable. Except, I still dissagree with approaching his father directly if the church leaders were not doing so. I also think approaching the boy directly - even though I did so eventually - was the wrong approach as it should have been the church leaders.

What I should have done is approach the church leaders! But I didn't. I didn't because they were not tackling the boy's behaviour or calling for his father, so I didn't feel I could approach them. I guess I felt that if they were not doing anything about it, then why would they if I asked them to.

OP posts:
gafhyb · 15/04/2012 18:30

I still disagree. You have to stand up for your children, and it's possible to do so in a way that helps the "aggressor".

kittyandthefontanelles · 15/04/2012 18:32

OP, it does sound like the adults just stood watching this whirlwind of a boy (quaking?) and did nothing. Then had a nice tut and a gossip about it. Perhaps this is not correct but its how it sounds.

mynewpassion · 15/04/2012 18:35

Its easier to gossip then to take action from what I can see from this church group.

ragged · 15/04/2012 18:38

Ideal if you had said something at the time but I can see why it was awkward.

So yanbu, fine to ask Vicar to have a word in your stead, now, and wrt future. Don't see a problem with that.

azzae · 15/04/2012 18:41

Also, the discipline policy could cover shouting or 'losing it' with children. I have to say, reading the OP posts has made me feel quite sorry for this boy and his family.

emdelafield · 15/04/2012 18:54

I speak as one with some experience as a volunteer in Junior Church (Church of Scotland) and as a parent of two boys who went to various church and non church activities before puberty dawned.

It is very hard to be responsible for a group of random chldren of different ages,some of whom are regular attenders and some who come infrequently or as a one off.

In our church the philosophy is "All are welcome in this place". That is sometimes easy to say but hard to do.

In the scenario described by the OP I think there may have been a training/policy issue/communication problem
I also think it is usually better if parents leave the (trained)volunteers to get on with things and get involved formally,as part of a rota,rather than having a non specific role.

Good groups (of any sort) require preparation ,planning and structure. We also had to do a risk assessment for activities outwith the church. In my view shouting never works as it just raises the temperature for all.

I know I am making heavy weather of this but honestly Junior Church was fun for volunteers and children alike. The fun was purposeful and when things did go wrong it was down to lack of preparation/ age inappropriate activities on offer and not because of the children.

madhairday · 15/04/2012 18:56

Hmmm. The first thing that springs to mind is that in a church this size there should be in place a behaviour policy and Child Protection Officer. If there is not maybe this incident can be the springboard to this being sorted out, and I would also be asking why not. we had this with a SS of 4 children - CP officer went on training, got certificate etc etc and a behaviour policy is easy to get together. It should then be made available to all volunteers who should know what to do in this kind of scenario.

It does seem very odd that nobody just approached the dad. I've been in a lot of churches and it's what would happen every time. I can't imagine being afraid of being unwelcoming to the extent that you wouldn't politely approach a parent of a misbehaving child, to the detriment of other children being hurt/propery being damaged. OP I would be asking these questions of the team and perhaps turning this into something more positive.

Doesn't sound like Messy Church which is meant to be a time for parents and dc to be together as a family within the service/activities. Sounds like a place for dc to go and do craft while parents are in cafe church - why can't they all be in cafe church togehter and then Messy Church together - works well, and then have normal kids church on other sundays?

And yes second madmouse re the vicar's wife thing though can see in this case she is involved - it's one of the most frustrating things about being a clergy wife when you're pulled in on stuff that's nothing to do with you!

Messy Church for those wondering what it is :)

halcyondays · 15/04/2012 19:06

The leader who was supposed to have been in charge of messy church should have said something to the boy as soon as he started misbehaving, given that parents had been allowed to leave them there while they went to the other room. They were assumeing respsonsibilty for the children who had been left so they should have been able to speak to the child and tell him not to punch, kick etc or to speak to his parents if he carried on. Failing that, I would have intervened myself by saying something to the boy.Most children will soon stop misbehaving if an adult other than their parents tells them off.

As regards the Wednesday group, as this is presumably a group where parents do not stay in the building, I assume they would be much quicker to step in and nip any kicking or punching in the bud. Presumably if this group is run by the vicar and his wife, they have plenty of experience in working with children and will be quick to intervene if there is any volunteer. I'm guessing the leader who was in charge if messy church, you said it changes every month, probably doesn't have much experience.

halcyondays · 15/04/2012 19:08

We go to Messy Church about once a month, everyone stays in the same room together, but even then if a child was to start kicking or punching other children, then one of the leaders or another parent would quickly step in, if the parent didn't do anything to stop them.

halcyondays · 15/04/2012 19:14

Just to add, I would have said something to him straight away as soon as he began hurting my child or another child, but I do think that the messy church leader should have stepped in straight away when he started kicking and punching.

jandymaccomesback · 15/04/2012 19:21

I would have thought that the person in charge of messy Church should have spoken to the boy and told him that if he didn't behave his father would have to be informed. Maybe the father just thought it was a free childminding service and that was why he wasn't with his son.I co-ordinate our children's work and have had to deal with a similar situation. I told the child that if he didn't stop doing what he was doing I would have to speak to his mother. He didn't stop, I spoke to his mother. In this case she brought him back and made him apologise and on his next visit his behaviour was much better.

mercibucket · 15/04/2012 19:30

I love the idea of making the baby jesus out of squidged jelly (makes note to self for future messy church)
Messy church is a 'proper' service ie it is not only a youth group but has prayers, sermon (well, bible story of some kind) plus lots of fun and messy activities and a family meal at the end. It's cool
Cafe church is kind of what it sounds like too - sitting round cafe style but still with sermon, prayers etc

BBQJuly · 15/04/2012 19:51

YANBU. There's nothing unchristian about asking for someone to stop upsetting and hurting others.

Isaidhangonamin · 15/04/2012 20:17

Please leave the Vicar out of it. He's busy.

kittyandthefontanelles · 15/04/2012 20:52

Mercibucket- both sound great, actually

Triggles · 15/04/2012 20:57

From a post of the OP:

sausagesandmarmelade · 15/04/2012 21:00

I agree that you (a fellow parent and part of the church family) should speak to the parents yourself....

curiositykitten · 15/04/2012 21:11

Great post Triggles - couldn't agree more.

Speak to the goddamn parents! If they don't know there is a problem, how are they supposed to deal with it?

BigHairyFlowers · 15/04/2012 21:14

What would Jesus do?

Stand around watching, do nothing, and then bitch about it afterwards?

I think not.

Hullygully · 15/04/2012 21:16

he actually did that a lot

Coconutty · 15/04/2012 21:26

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

aquashiv · 15/04/2012 21:33

I would try giving the child a chance .He might hate messy play.

Hoebag · 15/04/2012 21:36

I think 'asking around' to see if he has SN was really nasty and underhand, his parents will find out you did that and you'll look like a complete bitch.

Thats not dismissing bad behaviour some kids have bad days, or bad years perhaps find out this before making too many judgements.