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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask the vicar and his wife to speak to the parents of a 'new' very badly behaved boy

157 replies

pingu2209 · 15/04/2012 15:29

Today I went to church. We are regular church goers and today was their monthly family service held in the local secondary school, rather than within the church itself. There are 2 things going on: messy church for the children and cafe church for the adults.

The church still has another normal family service each month within the church, this service is different in that there is no singing and there is a lot of messy play activities with a Christian theme.

I really love my church. It is very friendly and a great mix of ages. There are all sorts of activities laid on for all the age groups.

However, today I was really shocked by the behaviour of one child at church whose family have only just started to attend the services. To be frank his behaviour totally spoiled the morning for me and my children.

The boy is about 7 or 8 and he was extremely unruely and agressive. He punched my 6 year old in the chest, kicked my 4 year old and kept pushing my (and other) children out of the way when he wanted to get to something. I finally snapped when he grabbed my 6 year old's jumper and started to throw it around and kick it across the hall. He had picked it up from a chair at the back of the hall, where I had put it folded up.

I watched him for a while opened mouthed at his behaviour and wondering why the parents wouldn't say anything. His father just sat there drinking coffee in another room and his mother wasn't there.

The very young children were shoved and pushed and at one point I had to see if a boy was okay because this one child had shoved him with his shoulder. He started to cry and went back to his mum in the other room. Then 2 other younger children asked to go back to their parents, but these 2 children I know well and they would normally stay.

After a while, other parents in the messy church started to make comments regarding the child's behaviour and were jokingly saying "I wonder who had Smarties for breakfast..." that kind of comment.

Eventually the leader of the messy church said that all the children were to go back to their parents in the cafe church (other room) and asked me to give the parents a 5 minute warning. I said that it was difficult as there was a talk being given to the parents. To which, the church leader said that she had no choice but to give the children back as it was becoming chaos. I had to agree with her - but it was all due to this one child!

I was then told that the boy in question was going to start going to the church group on a Wednesday evening during term time. My children love going to this group, but there is no way I will let them go if this boy attends and displays the same behaviour. I had made my mind up to speak to the vicar and his wife (who run the Wednesday church group).

Having read a comment in another thread where the mum felt that the church she attends treated her and her child badly as they told her son off for bad behaviour, I wonder if speaking to the vicar is reasonable.

As Christians we should be tollerant, and as a church as a whole we need to be tollerant of children's behaviour that isn't 'perfect' because it will put off families attending the church. I myself have faced the rolling of eyes and tutting of older (age 60+) parisheners when my children have played after the service. Certainly my children's behaviour can be less than I would wish it to be but the boy today made my 3 look like angels - no mean feat!!!

However, surely it is for parents to teach their child that behaviour that is acceptable in one situation is not acceptable in another. The other thread regarding hiding behind a curtain etc is extreme - but this boy is hitting, kicking and shoving other children. He is very loud and shouts over the adults speaking.

Before you ask - no he doesn't have learning difficulties (because I asked around this morning).

So am I unreasonable to speak to the vicar?

OP posts:
gafhyb · 15/04/2012 17:33

Amen

SauvignonBlanche · 15/04/2012 17:39

Well said marriedinwhite Grin
I don't have a frigging clue what a messy church is either but am RC so didn't like to ask.

StrandedBear · 15/04/2012 17:43

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Aboutlastnight · 15/04/2012 17:43

I agree with marriedinwhite.

Am not religious but if the church runs a messy play session then it needs to have people in charge who are capable of dealing with occasional challenging behaviour. Whether this is making a real effort to give the boy positive attention or -even better-get his father in there and make him do it, wealthy banker or not.
Kid has a new au pair. Has just moved house. You have no idea of his home life - being rich doesn't mean he isn't responding to some tough things in his wee life.

pingu2209 · 15/04/2012 17:47

Marriedinwhite - I was not a formal helper - I was a mum who was watching over her children as I have 3 and didn't think it fair to leave it to other people to look after them - especially as my 8 year old has SN and my youngest is only 4.

As I was not a formal helper I do not know whether there is a formal behaviour policy or a formal procedure for dealing with difficult behaviour. If there was either of those, they certainly were not being followed by the church leaders this morning.

We are taught love, but as one other poster mentioned here earlier, love is also loving oneself so that we can understand that it is not acceptable to have someone hitting us or being nasty to us - which this (8 year old) boy was doing - to everyone, not just my children.

Yea Gods! You don't seriously think that Christian teaching is to love everyone and allow them to hit you! Love everyone but not accept someone hitting you and yelling in your face.

OP posts:
gafhyb · 15/04/2012 17:50

pingu - do you normally intervene when your children are being hurt? I would guess that with 3 of them, you'd have had to do this before now.... Or was there something about this situation that made you hesitant?

pingu2209 · 15/04/2012 17:51

Aboutlastnight - I hear this attitude a lot in school. The really nasty children with massive behavioural problems have crap backgrounds. They move a lot, have little money, have no father on the scene etc yada yada yada.

We should all accept that these children hit our children and punch them and kick them and make them scared to come to school - because the poor child doing the hitting, kicking and punching has a hard live!

WTF!!!!!!

No, these children need a structured formal discipline. They need to be kept away from other children until they are safe to be with other children. They need to be taught what is acceptable behaviour in a calm manner - but kept away from other children if they can't behave.

This is a form of love by the way - discipline means to teach.

OP posts:
gafhyb · 15/04/2012 17:51

..and marriedinwhite wasn't suggesting turning the other cheek - she was suggesting prevention/gentle guidance. It doesn't have to get to the point of outbursts.

Nanny0gg · 15/04/2012 17:52

i do not understand why any adult witnessing the 'behaviour' couldn't intervene and stop it.

gafhyb · 15/04/2012 17:52

Xpost pingu

You seem to be making a big heavy point about one incident.

pingu2209 · 15/04/2012 17:52

Yes I do normally intervene when my children are getting hurt - but normally that happens when I am at home or on neutral ground like a park etc. It is harder to leap in and make comment on another child's behaviour when you are in a situation when you are not in charge or more to the point other's are formally in charge - but are not doing anything about it.

OP posts:
pingu2209 · 15/04/2012 17:55

Yes, the comments re school have nothing whatsoever to do with this morning at Church.

Gafhyb - the incident at church was over a period of 2 hours (the length of messy church). I also had my 6 year old son in the car saying that he doesn't want to go back to messy church (which he has loved since it started) if X boy is there.

OP posts:
gafhyb · 15/04/2012 17:55

OK. I understand your frustration. Because I'm a busybody a TA, I tend not to hang back.

littlemslazybones · 15/04/2012 17:57

Come on, Pingu, let's remember you are talking about a child, not a crazed sociopath. You could have dealt with the behaviour earlier, thus limiting the amount of chaos this child caused.

Man up and speak to his Dad next time, job done.

mynewpassion · 15/04/2012 17:57

Why didn't you make a comment to the person in charge of the group at that time then?

If you weren't in a "leadership" role, why didn't you go to one? You just handled it all wrong. There were so many options for you but you took the passive aggressive way out. Yelling at the child and then going to the vicar/wife instead of talking to the lead or the boy's father.

SoupDragon · 15/04/2012 17:57

Has this happened only once?

marriedinwhite · 15/04/2012 17:57

Some children and adults, need to learn how to love and to experience what it is. At our church we call it outreach work and sometimes outreach starts in church, by welcoming those who are new, those who feel they may not fit, those who don't know what to do or where to begin.

Love does not need a formal procedure. For all you know the leader might already have sought some help.

If you don't think the group was being run properly, volunteer and put in place mechanisms for it to be done better.

A congregation is a community and it sounds as though this lad and possibly his parents need some help and support and perhaps some love. Sometimes those in the community are in need and coming today might have been a tiny step towards being part of a loving community and receiving some love and learning to flourish and to interact positively.

gettinghappy · 15/04/2012 18:05

Pingu I am going to re tell the story, but with me and how I would have reacted, instead of you and have assumed the lad in question was not of the most accommodating nature. Have underlined the differences ......

*However, today I was really saddened by the behaviour of one child at church whose family have only just started to attend the services. His behaviour indicated that he was not able to manage in messy church, indepepndently of his parents and that he was struggling to get involved with the activities without some adult support.

The boy is about 7 or 8 and he was extremely unruely and agressive. He punched my 6 year old in the chest. I saw this happen and I firstly checked around for his parents. I couldn't see them so I apporached the boy and told him I had witnessed the incident and asked him why he had punched my child. He could give no answer. I explained that here, we do not hit each other and so I told him I was going to go and have a chat to his parents and asked if he would come with me. He refused. Before going to find his parents , I spoke to the leader in charge and explained the situation and asked if she could give him a special job or something to do to help him focus and settle.

His father was in the cafe church having a cup of coffee.I approached him and introduced myself. I welcomed him to the church and then explained about the incident which had occurred. He was completely mortified and came back with me to the messy church and had a chat with his son. Thereafter he joined his son in some messy play activities. The boy seemed to enjoy himself and with the help fo his father and the leader, made friends with another boy around his own age.

I was then told that the boy in question was going to start going to the church group on a Wednesday evening during term time. My children love going to this group, and I hope they make him feel welcome and they can become friends.

Having read a comment in another thread where the mum felt that the church she attends treated her and her child badly as they told her son off for bad behaviour, I think it's only fair to give this boy a second chance, a chance to settle in and to feel comfortable in his new surroundings.

As Christians we should be tollerant, and as a church as a whole we need to be tollerant of children's behaviour that isn't 'perfect' because none of us are perfect!. I myself have faced the rolling of eyes and tutting of older (age 60+) parisheners when my children have played after the service and it didn't feel welcoming or christianlike at all.

It is for parents to teach their child that behaviour that is acceptable in one situation is not acceptable in another. However it is also the responsibility of all adults to ensure the safety of children they are around and that is why I acted as I did. I protected the other children from further aggressive incidents and helped this little boy to become part of the group by approaching his father and asking him to support his son. I could not have ignored the incident as in doing so would have given the other children, and my own child that we should accept violence/aggrsssion towards us and I absolutely couldn't have done that!

I do not know if he has any SN, or if things are difficult at home, but I left church feeling good that I was able to have a positive influence for the children there today

So was I unreasonable to approach the boy's father? Should I have done nothing and then later make nasty and vindictive comments about a little boy who was new and finding it a bit difficult to fit in, and his lazy, rich father?.............................

Catch my drift? I am so glad that I do not attend your church. In fact I do not attend any church. By the sounds of it what matters in your church is money and things and decorum..........what about acceptance, humility and forgiveness??? Hmm

BoneyBackJefferson · 15/04/2012 18:08

gettinghappy

there is quite a bit of assumption of how the father would respond in that response.

mumeeee · 15/04/2012 18:09

One of the adults in charge of the messy church should have spoken to the boy and told him to stop hurting the other children. Then if he carried on someone should have gone and told the boys Dad. If he wasn't in the room how would he know what his sons behaviour was like.

Aboutlastnight · 15/04/2012 18:10

You are blaming this child for the failure of the adults around him. He is 6. He needs firm boundaries and he needs to be given the chance to behave positively.

I thought this was what church was good at. Maybe I was wrong Hmm

kittyandthefontanelles · 15/04/2012 18:13

Does messy church involve making the baby Jesus out of squidged jelly? I'm a Roman Catholic so no messy church for me.

littlemslazybones · 15/04/2012 18:14

You are blaming this child for the failure of the adults around him. He is 6. He needs firm boundaries and he needs to be given the chance to behave positively.

Or, you could use yelling, gossiping and vicious speculation until the shit fucks off and leaves your happy congregation in peace.

gettinghappy · 15/04/2012 18:17

BBJ You're right, there was. I shall elaborate then shall I. Had father not co-operated I would have immediately sought out the 'person in charge' whoever that may have been and asked them to intervene, not necessarily in a heavy handed way but definitely to address the problem.

The point of my lasyt post was to show AN alternative way of looking at this which does not demonise a 7 or 8 year old child. The child may just have been a little git, absolutely. However every single adult present that day seems to have failed in their responsibility to keep ALL the children safe. Even the aggressive litle boy was not entirely safe if he was running around assaulting other kids, he too could have ended up on the receiving end........none of the children were being kept safe. As a result several children were hurt and this boys potential to make friends within the group would also have been considerably damaged. IMO if adults cannot speak up for children then they should not be working with them in either a paid or voluntary capacity.

And just for info.........behaviour happens for a reason. You may not know the reason but you can be sure there would be something lurking around for that boy, be it a difficult family situation , SN or otherwise.

gettinghappy · 15/04/2012 18:19

littlemslazybones and Aboutlastnight you are both SOOOOO right :)