To ask the vicar and his wife to speak to the parents of a 'new' very badly behaved boy

[pingu2209]

Today I went to church. We are regular church goers and today was their monthly family service held in the local secondary school, rather than within the church itself. There are 2 things going on: messy church for the children and cafe church for the adults.

The church still has another normal family service each month within the church, this service is different in that there is no singing and there is a lot of messy play activities with a Christian theme.

I really love my church. It is very friendly and a great mix of ages. There are all sorts of activities laid on for all the age groups.

However, today I was really shocked by the behaviour of one child at church whose family have only just started to attend the services. To be frank his behaviour totally spoiled the morning for me and my children.

The boy is about 7 or 8 and he was extremely unruely and agressive. He punched my 6 year old in the chest, kicked my 4 year old and kept pushing my (and other) children out of the way when he wanted to get to something. I finally snapped when he grabbed my 6 year old's jumper and started to throw it around and kick it across the hall. He had picked it up from a chair at the back of the hall, where I had put it folded up.

I watched him for a while opened mouthed at his behaviour and wondering why the parents wouldn't say anything. His father just sat there drinking coffee in another room and his mother wasn't there.

The very young children were shoved and pushed and at one point I had to see if a boy was okay because this one child had shoved him with his shoulder. He started to cry and went back to his mum in the other room. Then 2 other younger children asked to go back to their parents, but these 2 children I know well and they would normally stay.

After a while, other parents in the messy church started to make comments regarding the child's behaviour and were jokingly saying "I wonder who had Smarties for breakfast..." that kind of comment.

Eventually the leader of the messy church said that all the children were to go back to their parents in the cafe church (other room) and asked me to give the parents a 5 minute warning. I said that it was difficult as there was a talk being given to the parents. To which, the church leader said that she had no choice but to give the children back as it was becoming chaos. I had to agree with her - but it was all due to this one child!

I was then told that the boy in question was going to start going to the church group on a Wednesday evening during term time. My children love going to this group, but there is no way I will let them go if this boy attends and displays the same behaviour. I had made my mind up to speak to the vicar and his wife (who run the Wednesday church group).

Having read a comment in another thread where the mum felt that the church she attends treated her and her child badly as they told her son off for bad behaviour, I wonder if speaking to the vicar is reasonable.

As Christians we should be tollerant, and as a church as a whole we need to be tollerant of children's behaviour that isn't 'perfect' because it will put off families attending the church. I myself have faced the rolling of eyes and tutting of older (age 60+) parisheners when my children have played after the service. Certainly my children's behaviour can be less than I would wish it to be but the boy today made my 3 look like angels - no mean feat!!!

However, surely it is for parents to teach their child that behaviour that is acceptable in one situation is not acceptable in another. The other thread regarding hiding behind a curtain etc is extreme - but this boy is hitting, kicking and shoving other children. He is very loud and shouts over the adults speaking.

Before you ask - no he doesn't have learning difficulties (because I asked around this morning).

So am I unreasonable to speak to the vicar?

we do messy church differently as well - it's a family church service so parents or carers are present - it's also run on a different day to main church. is yours more like a children's group while main church happens in another room/building?
leaders need to 'man up' - can you speak to the leaders of the wednesday group that you are worried about your children attending and suggest a discipline policy and make sure they have ways of contacting parents during the service if necessary

I also couldn't see the top prep school he goes to accepting a child with SN - because they live and die on their results!

Maybe they're not as ignorant as you. Some of us with SN are well edjumicated and very intellyjent intelleegent clever.

I did mention it to the church warden who I was helping wash/dry the crockery etc after the service. I approached it with her on the basis that I felt bad as I had shouted at one of the children who had hurt my 6 year old. She replied with a nod of understanding and that it was difficult to deal with children's behaviour. Again this makes me think that our church specifically are so careful not to upset parents for fear that the church will be deemed unfamily friendly, that they don't tackle poor behaviour.

Personally I wouldn't leave my DS alone in a group of people he/I didn't know, but if he was misbehaving to such an extent when I wasn't there, then I would much rather be told than have people make assumptions and then 'slag me off behind my back' if you'll excuse the somewhat JK phrasing..

Not informing the parents doesn't give them the opportunity to deal with it, does it?

It's not family-unfriendly to have a disciplinary procedure - quite the opposite, as parents know that their dc will be safe and happy (and under control!) Kids are used to it from school, other clubs etc.

I'd get the churchwarden to present the idea to the PCC - there are probably good templates you can use online, or from organisations like Messy Church / Scripture Union etc. Then have the 'Values' or whatever up on the wall all the time, make sure the dc know them, so that if someone comes in and misbehaves, it's easy to deal with.

Ah yes - that family friendly church where kids can run riot

It seems a shame no-one can think how to tackle bad behaviour tactfully one would have thought a christian would understand life is full of the good and the bad and we have to be able to handle both!!!

Don't tell me, they would rather have behind-the-back whispers and gradually the family in question drift away as never feel part of things??

mercibucket describes and excellent way of doing it, maybe you could suggest that to the group - sometimes a 'how to fix it' is better than a 'this is the problem' IYSWIM. :)

Oh - and get the parents to sign their approval of your policy the first time they leave their dc in the care of church people, along with basic care details (and maybe get someone on the SS team to do a 'safeguarding' / child safety session?)

If the boy goes to the Wednesday group, surely the vicar's wife will discover what he is like, if this was not just a one off. Then she can act accordingly.

And frankly, I can't believe no one just politely asked the father to come and get his son in hand. Something like,"x is being a bit rowdy, would you mind coming through and having a word with him?"

As a vicar's wife I'd say yes speak to the vicar but leave his wife out of it . You wouldn't speak to your bank manager's wife would you!

Lol madmouse
Very true :-)

It's after the fact now so putting aside the mistakes made on the day your idea seems fine to me.
I really don't understand how being "family friendly" turns into don't interact with other people's DC's or not be able to approach the parents - I always thought people joined a church as much for the community, and parents actually want DCs learn to share it's values.

As the OP is making assumptions, I will also.

What if the dad is the biggest donor in the church and the vicar refuses to talk to him about his misbehaving son for fear of having those monies withdrawn? Will the vicar then ask the OP's family put up and shut up because they can't do without the dad's money and patronage?

Have you considered the possibility that he was a shit badly behaved because it was his first session and it was some sort of nervous thing? I know a 10 year old (not mine) who behaves like this to get any attention because he's nervous.

I think the lack of behaviour expectations is a serious problem. Maybe this evil genius boy was behaving badly to test the waters? Maybe he's been at other groups where he can behave like that because the adults are afraid of him?

I really think the best thing to do is to have a 3 strikes policy with simple rules (like at primary school- kind hands etc). For a child, it is much kinder to be warned when behaviour is worsening rather than suddenly be yelled at because an adult has reached the end of their tether.

Pingu, are you saying that if he had learning difficulties then his behaviour woukd be okay?

mynewpassion that sounds unlikely in this day and age (knowing the inside of church finances lol) . Plus OP said the family is new.

I think that he was probably misbehaving because he didn't know the rules and all the adults who saw what he was up to sat back and allowed it to happen, thus sending the message that it was ok.

This seems to me to be a storm in a teacup. You made no real attempt to address this (yet), so there's no need to be making statements/assumptions about what the church will or won't accept. Stop worrying and if it happens again, deal with it by
a) talking to the child
b) if that doesn't work or he's in another room, talking to the parent/s
c) if that doesn't work, ask the powers that be to talk to the parent/s

Has this only happened once?

Exactly, Kladdaka.

It wasn't his first session. I have seen them a few times over the past 6 or so months - in my village church we are still deemed 'new' and we have been here 4 years!

I will approach the church warden/vicar's wife (because she is an active church leader of the children's activities - not because she is the wife of the vicar) with the idea of having a behaviour policy and I will say it is because I was really upset with how my 6 and 4 year old were treated. The boy who cried after being shoulder shoved and the 3 under 5 year olds who wanted to leave will also be mentioned.

However, I won't mention which child it was and will say that it is irrelevant who is was - it is more important that there is a behaviour policy that the children, parents and church leaders know about. Then if there is an issue we all know what the procedures are.

In fact, thinking about it, I am very good friends with one of the leaders of the usual Sunday school (not Messy Church or Wednesday Church Group) and ask her if there is a behaviour policy. I can't believe I forgot!

Anyway, your church needs a disciplinary procedure if dc are to be supervised by parents other than their parents. Then when naughty kids come in and start making trouble, someone needs to say 'We are really gad you're here, but we don't hit / whatever here. If you do that again, , you'll have to blah blah blah...' All adults who look after dc need to have the authority and confidence to say this, and al parents and kids need to respect it. I's worth taking today's incident and using it as the impetus to instigate a proper procedure

Good plan! positive action will hopefully prevent a repeat performance. :)

x post. That sounds sensible. I think you'll feel more confident in tackling this if you feel you've got the organisation's backing.

But really, as soon as a child starts hurting others, or damaging property, wherever that is don't we all have the responsibility to intervene? I mostly do (it takes a village etc etc)

I am a practicing liberal Anglican yet have absolutely no idea what "messy church" and "cafe church" mean. Are there readings, is there a sermon, is the nicene creed said, is there communion? What do those terms mean and are either a form of worship.

If "messy church" is a sort of Sunday School and there was a leader and you were there as a helper, did not an adult introduce themselves to the boy, find out his name, include him in the activities and try to supervise him and make him feel welcome and included? If that had been tried and failed then one of you should have got his father.

The fact that the boy's family are wealthy, regular worshippers or donors has nothing to do with it. The fact that nobody seemed to deal with him, reason with him and actually care about him and what he was doing is of grave concern. Had those things happened there might have been a little less effect on the other children.

There must be somebody responsible for co-ordinating the children's worship and work. That is the person with whom you should raise your concerns but not: "see, we were in messy play and this boy, the one from the big house, with the au-pair and whose dad's a banker and has a porsche so obviously they are rich and farm out their boy to other people, well he was being rough and hit other children and he was out of control and some of the mums thought he's had a smartie smoothie and we're not sending our dc to Wednesday church if he's there because we are not including this boy because we have decided we don't like him and he's only 6 and we're all grown up and couldn't be bothered to do anything pro-active or inclusive today"

How about "if x boy comes to messy play on Wednesday, do you think someone could keep an eye out for him and be there for him; things went a bit wrong for him on Sunday and we don't want him to be labelled and it would be lovely to see him become part of the group and to blossom".

If the leader is aware there might be problem something can be put in place, if having put something in place for the short term, every effort will have been made to include the lad and if he isn't manageable, the children's leader will deal with it without further intereference.

In the meantime perhaps one of you could find out about love and present it as a theme for messy play next time. A sort of explanation for the children about how God teaches us to love everyone and see some good in everyone even if they are different or have been naughty. Hopefully your vicar and his wife know all about love and forgiveness and are trying to cascade it down to the congregation.

Yea Gods!
Grrrr.