To ask the vicar and his wife to speak to the parents of a 'new' very badly behaved boy

[pingu2209]

Today I went to church. We are regular church goers and today was their monthly family service held in the local secondary school, rather than within the church itself. There are 2 things going on: messy church for the children and cafe church for the adults.

The church still has another normal family service each month within the church, this service is different in that there is no singing and there is a lot of messy play activities with a Christian theme.

I really love my church. It is very friendly and a great mix of ages. There are all sorts of activities laid on for all the age groups.

However, today I was really shocked by the behaviour of one child at church whose family have only just started to attend the services. To be frank his behaviour totally spoiled the morning for me and my children.

The boy is about 7 or 8 and he was extremely unruely and agressive. He punched my 6 year old in the chest, kicked my 4 year old and kept pushing my (and other) children out of the way when he wanted to get to something. I finally snapped when he grabbed my 6 year old's jumper and started to throw it around and kick it across the hall. He had picked it up from a chair at the back of the hall, where I had put it folded up.

I watched him for a while opened mouthed at his behaviour and wondering why the parents wouldn't say anything. His father just sat there drinking coffee in another room and his mother wasn't there.

The very young children were shoved and pushed and at one point I had to see if a boy was okay because this one child had shoved him with his shoulder. He started to cry and went back to his mum in the other room. Then 2 other younger children asked to go back to their parents, but these 2 children I know well and they would normally stay.

After a while, other parents in the messy church started to make comments regarding the child's behaviour and were jokingly saying "I wonder who had Smarties for breakfast..." that kind of comment.

Eventually the leader of the messy church said that all the children were to go back to their parents in the cafe church (other room) and asked me to give the parents a 5 minute warning. I said that it was difficult as there was a talk being given to the parents. To which, the church leader said that she had no choice but to give the children back as it was becoming chaos. I had to agree with her - but it was all due to this one child!

I was then told that the boy in question was going to start going to the church group on a Wednesday evening during term time. My children love going to this group, but there is no way I will let them go if this boy attends and displays the same behaviour. I had made my mind up to speak to the vicar and his wife (who run the Wednesday church group).

Having read a comment in another thread where the mum felt that the church she attends treated her and her child badly as they told her son off for bad behaviour, I wonder if speaking to the vicar is reasonable.

As Christians we should be tollerant, and as a church as a whole we need to be tollerant of children's behaviour that isn't 'perfect' because it will put off families attending the church. I myself have faced the rolling of eyes and tutting of older (age 60+) parisheners when my children have played after the service. Certainly my children's behaviour can be less than I would wish it to be but the boy today made my 3 look like angels - no mean feat!!!

However, surely it is for parents to teach their child that behaviour that is acceptable in one situation is not acceptable in another. The other thread regarding hiding behind a curtain etc is extreme - but this boy is hitting, kicking and shoving other children. He is very loud and shouts over the adults speaking.

Before you ask - no he doesn't have learning difficulties (because I asked around this morning).

So am I unreasonable to speak to the vicar?

I know that SN does not = stupid - my eldest son has SN and we think my youngest daughter does too - I'm not being judgy pants regarding that matter - believe me I'm not.

I think that Hackmum has it - that I guessed the child was a little git because of poor parenting - so what was the point in going to the parents! At my children's school you would never ever go to the parents of the children who are very badly behaved or they would hit you! (I'm not saying the father of this boy would have done that though).

The age of the children who attend messy church is 1 - 11. Normally once the girls get to 9 they don't attend and stay in the cafe church all in a group round a table. This is a shame as it is normally the sensible older girls who keep things calm! This morning there was a polarisation between under 5s and 8 year old boys. The adults were either wiping noses/bottoms or having to tell the older boys off.

I attend the messy church because I have 3 children there. However, there are a lot of parents to 'drop off their children' in the messy church and then attend the cafe church. However, cafe church is only in the other room. It is really really hard to go up to a parent and ask them to tackle their child's behaviour - not least because our church is very keen to be child friendly and accepting of children generally. It is like there is an unwritten rule that if a child is being a pain in the bum, everyone else has to accept it because it may be deemed that the church is not family friendly.

I would like you to know that I said nothing to the boy until he started to pull my 6 year old's jumper around. I then 'lost it' and shouted at him at full volume that "I've had enough, you have hit my son twice and now you are damaging his clothes, pack it in". The church leader said (I quote) "sometimes a firm voice is needed". Clearly it was going to be nobody other than mine!

"Excuse me, are you X's dad? Your little boy seems to be overexcited and is pushing and hurting the younger children. Please can you take him for a few minutes while he calms down?"

Then see how the dad reacts (hopefully he deals with the situation capably) and decide on the best course of action.

However, I think that you and the play leader missed your chance by not tackling the problem straight away. You probably need to wait for the next time, unfortunately.

Even if he is a just brat, he's still a child.

The least you could have done is approach his Dad, quietly, and ask him to deal with his son's behaviour. I can't believe you couldn't muster the nerve for this conversation but can happily gossip about him behind his back.

obviously the fact the the parents are well off means they are hand offs and obviously he either has no SE because you asked around or he does and therefore should not be left alone.

if your child was being a little brat in a different room whilst out in public dont you think you would want to know???

i would!

money does not equal hands off parenting.

But since no one went and actually asked the Dad to deal with it, or actually ticked the boy off themselves, all of this is only conjecture.

'The least you could have done is approach his Dad, quietly, and ask him to deal with his son's behaviour. I can't believe you couldn't muster the nerve for this conversation but can happily gossip about him behind his back.'

sums up what i wanted to say!

What exactly has the wealth of people in your neighbourhood/congregation got to do with any of this?

What utter tosh!

exactly OP you guessed....you have no idea if you are right or not.

I can't believe everyone there was too flakey to speak to a father, if I was in another room and one of my kids started kicking off and nobody came to get me i would be mortified

He's clearly just a little bastard. They should bring back national service.

You guessed its bad parenting do no point going to talk to parents. You said you dont know them at all and all you do know is they are rich, have an au pair and he goes to a prep school. You concluded from that that his parents don't parent him at all, won't take a negative word about him, would not care he was hurting others and he can't have an SN. No your not judging at all are you?

Yes, all the comments regarding his father and going to his father are totally right.

But should that be me? I'm just a mum in the church - if none of the church leaders were going to even tell the boy off, I could well have been over stepping our church's mark by me approaching the father.

As it was I was the only one who said anything to the boy. Even then I thought that it was the wrong thing to do in our church as this is not the way our church tackle's behaviour.

This is why I ask would it be unreasonable to ask the vicar/vicar's wife to say something to the parents?

Whoneedssleepanyway - I'd have been mortified too, and then furious to hear that an adult had 'lost it' and was shouting at my child because it was easier than speaking to me.

The problem then isn't primarily with the child then; the problem is that no adult is acting as a leader who immediately stops children from hitting each other. That is what needs sorting out, or your group isn't 'child friendly' at all.

and OP I think the trying to seem family friendly strategy has backfired spectacularly as rather than speak to the father which would be deemed not being family friendly it was better for you to yell your head off at the child...

Just picking up one point OP, you seem a bit confilcted between your fealings of how you would like to behave and what you think you should do as a Christian.
I think your conflict is not necessary, in bible terms (my understanding as a Baptist) is that all children are under the watchful care of all adults, the turn-another-cheek, be tolerant bible passages are not in conflict with discipline as discupline itself is guidence through teaching.
Therefore to correct any child (ie telling them off for aggresive behaviour, taking them back over to their parent etc) is a Christian act of discipline, a demonstration that you as a Christain love and care for that child with strength and courage, love to give of your time and effort, courage to face critisim of parents who maybe on the defensive.
In my view it would be un-like Jesus to remove yourself or your children from church, it would be very Jesus-like to connect with this new family in a friendly way that clearly and firmly presents your concerns.
If you feal that another church-member would be best placed to voice your concerns then that is OK however do try to talk directly to the parents yourself, you seem a little shy of confrountation, Jesus working through you can give you immense confidence.

OP - you're going to get judged for every utterance on this thread by people deciding you're judging (oh the irony)

I hear your dilemma and I think your stance of leaving it a couple of weeks before chatting to the vicar's wife who does do children's activities is perfectly reasonable

One of the leaders should just have sent for the father and asked him to remove his DS until he had calmed down. The vicar wasn't there and I don't see why it is anything to do with the vicar's wife unless she was a leader.

To be honest, though you may not know the parents it seems the simplest and most honest way to deal with this would be for someone (anyone) to go to the parents while the behaviour is happening and say something like 'I think you should know your son is upsetting some children and you need to come and deal with it'

Parent is then aware of problem, can react according to how they choose. Then you get to see if you actually have a problem or not.

If the child acts like this when not supervised by parents but parents can produce reasonable behaviour - no major problem for future occasions.

If the parents don't care / can't control that is something else and should be handled accordingly.

I think you have to at least start with the assumption the parents wouldn't accept bullying type behaviour, in which case it creates rather more drama than is necessary by having them pulled aside after the fact for a 'talk'.

If I was that parent, I would be a) embarrassed that the vicar had been roped in when a quiet word at the time would have done b) In a much weaker position to give appropriate punishment if I can't see the how and why of the complaint.

Unless you give the parents the opportunity to deal with it, you can speculate till the cows come home about what their parenting style may or may not be and why etc.

So it is difficult to tell a parent their child is being an arse - well obviously! But you would rather the other children were upset as the behaviour continued and the group got wrapped up early. dealing with tricky stuff is part of being an adult.

wWhoops - cross post - didn't realise you'd gone OTT with the child - obviously not Christian discipline !!

ToothbrushThief - the difference here is the OP is being judged for shouting at a child and not speaking to the parent FACT whereas she was judging a child and his father and making assumptions without knowing anything about their background

OP - I think if you do speak to the vicar's wife you should do it in a more generic way than specifically about this boy, why not say you want to suggest that when someone new comes along to the messy church their parent or carer should stay with them for the entire first session so that they can help them settle in etc, explain that there has been a recent occasion where things got a bit out of hand and this might have diffused the situation...

Now the moment has passed, the only option remaining is to flag it up to the group leader as you say, so if it reoccurs they don't waste time wondering if it is an anomaly and can quash it or involve the parents more promptly next time.

'But should that be me? I'm just a mum in the church '

Well, I'm not imagining that you storm in and give him a rollocking for his son's behaviour.

How about, 'Hello, my name is [Pingu2209], is that your little boy in there? He seems to be having a tough time settling in'.

How hard was that?

we run a couple of these kinds of activities

if the parents are not physically present (if they are, you speak direct to them), then you need a clear discipline policy in place eg a traffic light system, a 3 strikes system, something along those lines

this policy is made clear to all the children and there is a poster or some such reminder put up

you enforce it

child is removed either for the rest of the session or also for subsequent sessions if there is bad enough behaviour

without a clear policy, you are open to accusations of favouritism or bullying by picking on just one child's behaviour. the children also don't necessarily know what is expected of them if there are no clear rules. the rules can be very simple - kind hands, kind words, that sort of thing

Concern over whether you over-stepped the mark when your church don't deal with things that way should be balanced against concern over whether you have been true to your own conscience,

and if you felt the behaviour should have been nipped in the bud but you were the only one taking steps then at least you were the only one not turning a blind eye.

You would be doing the child a favour to find a way for him to behave better - he isn't going to win any hearts the if he carries on like that is he?

So if the church don't like addressing things like this -what do they usually do if something like it comes up?

Messy church normally works as somehting that dc and parents do together, so if the dad was sitting a way away from his son, and other parents in another room, it doesn't sound like Messy Church - unless your church has put together its own version?

Anyway, your chruch needs a discipinary procedure if dc are to be supervised by parents other than their parents. Then when naughty kids come in and start making trouble, someone needs to say 'We are really gad you're here, but we don't hit / whatever here. If you do that again, you'll have to blah blah blah...' All adults who look after dc need to have the authority and confidence to say this, and al parents and kids need to respect it. I's worth taking today's incident and using it as the impetus to instigate a proper procedure.