To feel a bit miffed about "I can't shake hands with women for religious reasons"

[Hopefullyrecovering]

Which is what was said to me today, in a work context.

I have never heard of this before and googled it and apparently it is true that certain very orthodox forms of religion prohibit men shaking women's hands.

So I am torn between my inner liberal need for religious toleration, and thinking it's a damnfool sort of religion that prohibits a man from shaking a woman's hand and not just a little bit sexist too.

So, AIBU to feel miffed?

That's true WGC. In fact Hasidim won't even engage with non-Hasidic Jews. As I found out when lost in Williamsburg, Brooklyn!

I come across this a lot at work because the area has a large number of Muslims. I accept it and go along with it. But I do think at the root of it is a ridiculous idea that relations between the genders need to be strictly controlled to avoid sex happening outside marriage.

It is sexual discrimination. End of.
Report him to Human Resources. If I was his boss I would be furious at him representing my company in this way.
Do not collude in this nonsense.

"Orthodox jews don't touch unknown women because they have no way of knowing if she is menstruating. If you are having your period you are unclean until you've had a ritual bath."

Delightful.

I disagree that it is not harmful to women to be openly accused of being unclean by a man who refuses to shake their hand in a business meeting.

I also disagree that it is not harmful to a society for women to walk around in public with their faces covered. That kind of dehumanising segregation is very damaging to normal human interaction.

Harm does not mean only physical harm.

I think priority should be given to treating people equally, so if they can't shake the woman's hand, then they should refrain from shaking ANYONE'S hand. Otherwise it's discrimination and disgraceful.

If I met a woman who was willing to shake my hand and not my DH's or male work colleague's hand, then I wouldn't shake hers.

He is a guest in a country with different customs, HE should adapt to these customs.

That's a pretty big assumption to make. What if he isn't a guest, but a British citizen? Should he still be forced to conform? And if so, who is going to decide which customs all British people must follow?

"It felt a bit horrible, to wander in, hand extended, all friendly and stuff and get that response."

It would have been more polite to warn you in advance that he doesn't shake hands with women, rather than letting you extend a hand and be rejected.

First: re: 'he is a guest in OUR country' - the local very strict Jewish Orthodox sect have families whose ancestors arrived in my (Southern English) town from Eastern Europe as long as 200 years ago - when my town was built in fact! Some of the families helped build the town; you can see that by some of the older road names.
There are lots of Jews in my town of various denominations; but this group stand out as they dress traditionally & follow the rules very strictly.

The group emigrated to England to escape pogroms & persecution. Here they can safely follow their traditions. I don't agree with the 'not shaking hands with women' rule that some men have; but i'm proud to live in a place that allows them the freedom to follow their rules.
Personally i find that just because a man won't touch you - it does NOT mean he doesn't respect you.

The thing i hate (coming from a working class home) is kissing people as a greeting. My best mates & i sometimes hug but kissing IMO is for family & partners / dates only. So i feel VERY awkward with social kissing...

I think not shaking hands in a culture where it is the norm creates barriers which is unfortunate.

A colleague will not shake hands due to OCD so has to make up excuses for this.

I think in both cases the decision not to shake hands should be respected - if the person is otherwise acting in a friendly way and is not rude then it is fine.

Agree chitchat. If he had entered the room and suggested casually that the whole group dispense with handshakes then that would have been avoided any embarrassment on either side. It's the fact that he shook hands with the male colleague which made the situation awkward, IMO.

To me, it's not just that cultural norms are important, it's that gender equality is even more so, and should take precedence over individual religious values.

The handshake is a welcoming signal which symbolises a level of trust and equality between the parties (one bows, curtseys or salutes to superiors but shakes hands with equals). To not shake hands, in western culture, symbolises inequality. So to not shake hands with a female purely on the basis of gender is signalling - like it or not - that she is not his equal.

Best if he simply declines to shake hands with anyone in the room if he really can't be flexible in his personal religious beliefs.

How can you equate the two cases, EFA?
In one case, the person has a personal, social phobia about all other human beings.
In the other case, the person has been taught to have a phobia about one section of society.

What if my religion said that I shouldn't touch or shake hands with, say, the disabled - would that be OK?

We have spent over a hundred years fighting to get sexual equality and I am not in favour of surrendering it in the name of made up stories religion.

ilovesooty erm yes a mental problem I think...

I know someone who refuses handshakes on the basis that he is afraid if he touches someone he might inadvertently cause them harm by thinking bad thoughts about them. He has OCD which qualifies as a mental health problem. Are you trying to tell me that avoiding touching women in case they are menstruating and hence 'dirty' or because you might go to 'hell' is a more rational reason? I certainly don't think so.

kittyandthefontanelles Sat 14-Apr-12 08:09:53
As far as I understand, its not just because you are a woman but a woman who is not of their religion. It's Muslim is it not? I personally don't find it offensive and I come across it a lot because I live in a predominantly Muslim area.

this is about orthodox jews, and you understand wrong

and with Muslims it is because you are of the opposite sex and not because you are not a Muslim.

Is it sexist when colleagues from other cultures kiss me on both cheeks on meeting, when they wouldn't do the same to a man?

It's the working relationship that matters, surely, not the particular greeting ritual being followed.

The not touching thing is also the reason some shop keepers put your change on the counter rather than hand it to you

"unclean until you've had a ritual bath."

I've never had a ritual bath.

If a person is so concerned that a woman might taint him with her uncleanliness, then he should simply refuse to shake hands at all, with anyone, regardless of gender. That should surely be acceptable?

What's the cure for touching an unclean woman, BTW? What does having touched an unclean woman mean - ie, does it prevent one eating/ travelling/ speaking etc? I suppose I am asking to weigh up the harms - the harm to the woman in this situation was social awkwardness, embarassment, a feeling of inferiority. What would the harm be to a man? Would it prevent him going to heaven? Cause him to break out in a rash? Give him the heebie-jeebies, because potential menstruation is such filth?

Religion should not be involved in public life.

I can't respect anything which sees women as inferior to men and somehow dirty. It's medieval and doesn't deserve my respect.

Then you've failed to understand Judaism - perhaps one of the few religions in which women are revered.

I don't want to be revered.
I just want to be treated the same as everyone else, thank you.

There does seem to be a lot of conflicting info on the net about this, although I have only had a quick google, to be fair.

Some sources say that it's forbidden for both men and women to touch non-family members of the opposite sex (in the same way as some Muslims are) to avoid any possibility of ambiguous sexual signals being sent out. I think that if this is the case, it's a lot easier to understand and is at least fair, as it applies equally to men and women.

There are also orthodox rules about men not touching their wives while they are menstruating and for a few days afterwards, but that is a different issue, and not the reason why an orthodox man won't shake hands with a non-family woman in a work situation.

Oh please. The Orthodox Jewish women in my ultra-densely Jewish neighbourhood are not revered. Their heads are covered and they have many children and they have to obey Jewish laws that prevent their proper participation in society.

Perhaps women are revered as long as they go along with nonsense such as men not shaking hands.

I'm tired if women having to put up eigh do much utter silliness in the name of religion?

Men don't touch women when they have their period??

Be very miffed with your company for not briefing you (if they had advance knowledge of him).

Be a wee bit miffed with your junior for accepting the handshake (but then put it down to inexperience & what was probably his sense of awkwardness at the time, and forget about it).

Be only miffed with the client IF (a) his refusal was curt or had any hint of how-dare-you AND/OR (b) he went on to be dismissive or in any other way discriminatory towards you in the meeting. Orthodox Jewish people in business are fully, fully aware of conventional business practices and he should have been able to let you see that this was just a trivial blip.

I am thinking about how very clumsy I have been with Japanese clients, not knowing how to bow or present my card or any of the other niceties, and how unfailingly courteous and gracious they have continued to be.

(I bet you went on being courteous, no matter how miffed you were secretly feeling.)

can anyone see how silly this is? adherents to religions are saying, "i am not inferior" "i do not feel inferior" "my understanding of my religion is not that women are inferior" and non adherents are saying actually you dont know your own religion and your experiene, understanding and perception of your own religion is wrong, we understand it better then you do....