To feel a bit miffed about "I can't shake hands with women for religious reasons"

[Hopefullyrecovering]

Which is what was said to me today, in a work context.

I have never heard of this before and googled it and apparently it is true that certain very orthodox forms of religion prohibit men shaking women's hands.

So I am torn between my inner liberal need for religious toleration, and thinking it's a damnfool sort of religion that prohibits a man from shaking a woman's hand and not just a little bit sexist too.

So, AIBU to feel miffed?

No, actually a cultural norm is just that. A cultural norm. In my business, the cultural norm is to shake hands. Not once, in 20 years of practice have I encountered anyone who didn't shake hands. The cultural norm is to shake hands. He didn't. I really want to respect his beliefs, don't get me wrong. But still, he is not obeying the cultural norm. He is obeying his (not mainstream) religious beliefs. There is a difference.

so where would you stop at cultural norms taking precedence over religious beliefs? you havent answered any of the questions in my post.

I completely agree with verylittlecarrot, if this person is a colleague/manager and shaking hands with men during meetings etc and not females then I would have thought that they are actually breaking the law (Equality Act) by discriminating on grounds of sex.

The fact that they are discriminating on the grounds of their own protected characteristic within the Equality Act (religion/belief) has no bearing I wouldnt have thought, for example, recent well documented case about B&B owners who refused to let a gay couple stay due to their religious beliefs found in favour of gay couple.

I find it extremely interesting that there was a thread fairly recently about a lady whose son was gay and her colleague was openly telling her that this was against her religion. and people thought this was wrong on the thread yet here the responses seem to indicate that its okay to treat people differently based on something they have no control over (gender) because its a religious belief.

Obviously i dont know the full context but if this is a work situation i would be extremely offended and probably humiliated if a colleague shook other people's hands but not mine because i am female. Whilst i respect their religious beliefs there is no grounds for treating people differently in the workplace and i agree the most appropriate action would be that they didnt shake anyone's hands.

NotGoing- the reason that the B&B owners couldn't do that was because they were providing a service. A service cannot be refused based on a protected characteristic.

The OP's training is well out of date, as i said ealier up the thread and if her company made an insistance about shaking hands, they would be guilty of indirect discrimination, people have a right to follow areligion, even one's that are not 'mainstream', in the society that they live in.

Well, erm, no. In business it is seen as The Norm to follow the cultural practices of the client? No?

The key thing is that respect for fuckwitted bigoted superstition religion is all very well, but it shouldn't override respect for other people so there should be compromise on both sides. If someone stated that their religious beliefs meant they would only shake hands or share food (for instance) with people of some ethnic groups but not others, they would be treated as wierd barbarians and possibly subjected to disciplinary or legal action: once again, a request to be excused body contact or shared rituals with everyone would be a suitable compromise.

Had your company explained this client's customs to you before the meeting, do you think it would have made a difference in how you feel?

Birds,

employers also have responsibility under the act - as well as service providers though? So if this was a colleague/line manager the employer would have a duty to ensure that (female) employees were not directly discriminated against.

I agree with what you are saying that it would be indirect discrimination if a company had a policy such as you outline, but i would still think that if someone chose to shake hands with male but not female colleagues this would be direct discrimination.

As i said though i dont know whether it was a colleague etc and also dont know if the person in question is also not shaking hands with males which would come down to personal choice - and people are well entitled to choose that, as opposed to choosing to treat people differently.

employers also have responsibility under the act - as well as service providers though? So if this was a colleague/line manager the employer would have a duty to ensure that (female) employees were not directly discriminated against

But females cannot shake the hand of males, so it doesn't apply to one gender, just the opposite gender, which in some circumstances, is lawful. There are clauses to the sexual discrimination act, which still stand.

Perhaps the business of shaking hands, should be looked at, given the amount of well dressed people that i see not washing theirs after going to the toilet, i wish it was stopped.

"Someone who is unable to treat both genders with equality in the workplace has no place in that workplace."

Quite.

What if he had refused to shake the hand of the only black person in the room? The only disabled person?

Why does religious belief make appalling, discriminatory rudeness OK?

Singling someone out for a sign of disrespect on the basis of their gender is extremely rude in this culture.

Yabu - respect their views.

We are either accepting of parts of other cultures which are not harmful to anyone or we are not. Fgm, forced marriage, witch craft rituals ( not pagan I mean the beating the devil out kind) female infanticide these are all harmful. Not shaking a member of the opposite sexes hand is not. Covering your hair or face is not.

I believe that the employer should have explained to THE CLIENT that in this country, women are treated equally as men. And that if he would not shake women's hands, then it would be appropriate that he would restrain from shaking anybody's hands, in order not to cause offend.

He is a guest in a country with different customs, HE should adapt to these customs. If I was in Japan, I would learn about their customs and would not expect to go around hugging and kissing people (as a Spaniard) and them not getting offended.

It wouldn't bother me, and I don't find it sexist.

What if he had refused to shake the hand of the only black person in the room? The only disabled person?

Why does religious belief make appalling, discriminatory rudeness OK?

I totally agree AThingInYourLife

Here in the UAE, this is fairly common, although far more from the other side (as in, Emirati lady declines to shake hands with visiting man) - does that mean she thinks men are inferior? It seems to be only the more devout men who will actually decline to shake a woman's hand, though men generally don't offer (presumably as it would be offensive to many women in their culture)

I don't see it as a 'rejection', if the surrounding behaviour is friendly/welcoming/respectful, and as the underlying reason will apply both ways (a woman would not want to touch a man not close to her, any more than a man would want to touch such a woman) I don't see the comparison to the black/disabled issue. And surely the fact that some religions don't believe any touching between men and women who are not related or married is OK is fairly common knowledge?

Yabu.

Quite frankly it's a blessed relief not to have to make physical contact with others.

This man told you why he would not do it, if he were 'disrespectful' he wouldn't have.

And tbh, you said you Googled this and couldn't find an answer, I'd suggest you didn't. Nip over to www.askmoses.com and take a look.

Did this really happen yesterday?

this happened to me too (British follower of orthodox religion), and I was initially a bit hurt, in this case as our working relationship progressed i realised that when i contributed to meetings etc he valued my input which in my male centred industry wasn´t always done even by the handshakers! ( a typical I say something no one pays attention, a bloke says it 5 mins later it´s a great idea)

So now I think it is a bit shocking and I am wary about making the first move to shake hands with someone who may fit in that category, but as in most things how it affects the working relationship is completely down to the individual

Difficult when two cultures who have to interact put such different interpretations on the same act, isn't it ?

I assume that in orthodox cultures not shaking the opposite gender's hand is a sign of respect. However, in traditional British culture, refusing to shake an outstretched hand signifies contempt. (Had the person refusing to shake hands been an agnostic of British origin, the message of his act would have been both clear and unpleasant). Raised in British traditional culture, I can understand intellectually that different cultures have different meanings for different acts, but my emotional, visceral reaction will be that of my culture - I'd feel offended, whilst not necessarily thinking offended, IYSWIM.

I do think there is a difficult question in all of this : how far does the writ of respecting different cultures go when different cultural norms were or are considered offensive (or even wrong when it comes to gender equality) in the home culture ? As a teacher, I've had one or two (rare) cases of foreign students who would not accept the authority of a female teacher. This, I assume, is not acceptable to anyone, though it is a cultural difference. Drawing the exact line between "this is acceptable in the name of tolerance, though I would not accept it without the cultural difference" (without the information that the person is of a different culture the not shaking hands thing becomes very offensive) and "no this is not OK" is difficult.

Surely you also have to consider the way in which the handshake is refused. I think it's perfectly acceptable to refuse to shake someone's hand on religious grounds, but it needs to be explained. This happened once where I work - my male colleague came to meet a new employee with his hand outstretched, and she just put her hands behind her back and looked at him. THAT was rude and left him feeling really uncomfortable. But if she'd just said 'I'm sorry, I don't shake hands with men because I'm muslim, but I'm really pleased to meet you' it would have smoothed things over. I think when people behave kindly to each other then it's a lot easier to tolerate these kind of cultural/religious differences. And when it is your behavious is out of the cultural norm (e.g. Shaking hands is the norm in the UK, kissing cheeks in France) then the onus is on you to explain why you differ and make an extra effort to be polite in other ways.

As far as I understand, its not just because you are a woman but a woman who is not of their religion. It's Muslim is it not? I personally don't find it offensive and I come across it a lot because I live in a predominantly Muslim area.

Orthodox jews don't touch unknown women because they have no way of knowing if she is menstruating. If you are having your period you are unclean until you've had a ritual bath.

Muslim women/men don't touch members of the opposite sex either, I don't think it's for the same reason though.

I've worked with both and never been offended by them not wanting to shake hands with me, I just think they're a bit brain-washed and a little bit silly but that's all, no offence taken.

Agree with lousch. Whenever it's happened to me it's been accompanied by a very respectful nod of the head from the man.. Just not a problem

worldgonecrazy what happens when a women is manifestly past the age of child-bearing, e.g. in her 60s?