to think dd's teacher was maybe over-reacting a tad?

[Northernlurker]

Apparently dd has been 'very rude' today as per the message from teacher via after school club. Very rude consists of not listening to story but talking to friends and then saying 'no' when told to stop and 'no' when told to move. Now I agree this is very rude and the teacher obviously dealt with it at length because dd was in floods of tears when collected by after school club. I have spoken to dd and she was talking because the book was one we have at home and she was telling her friends as much. At the end of a hot day, at the end of term her attention is shot to pieces as is that of most of the other kids. AIBU to think that a message home about this infraction was overkill. She didn't get a warning, she didn't get a timeout - and really what am i supposed to do about this? i speak to dd about her day every day. i am clear about what is expected but seeing as she's a stubborn 4 who has been at school less than a term i don't expect miracles. Frankly impressed we've got this far.

Or should I be grovelling tomorrow?

Sorry as a previous reception teacher and mother of 3 I have to say this not normal behaviour after a term in school and incredibly rude.If you had a class of 30 4 year olds who behaved like that you'd have a massive behaviour problem.

'What happens to them while the teacher is always busy working around the 1 or 2 children who haven't been raised with the same reasonable expectations?'

You want the truth? Nothing happens to the children, but the teacher is then judged by the parents of all the other children for her constant attention being on one or two individuals. And they complain to each other in the playground or on MN.

Stop making excuses for a child being rude and disruptive. The teacher reprimanded the child for her unacceptable behavior. I am sorry to hear that the child cried but she shouldn't have been misbehaving in the first place.

And I'm sure nobody would want their child in a class where the entire 30 hadn't been raised with reasonable expectations.

Dustinthewind. Nothing happens? The others really don't lose out? I wouldn't like to put that theory to the test.

My DS has the most amazing character and spirit but would never dream of being insolent or rude to his teacher or any other adult! My daughter is less of a character and more introverted but she would cry if told off by the teacher as she would hate to feel she wasn't being 'good' iykwim, she would never be rude in the first place though

'Dustinthewind. Nothing happens? The others really don't lose out? I wouldn't like to put that theory to the test.'

Well, they potter off and do their 80% child-initiated learning as laid down in the EYFS curriculum. Probably involving eating lego and stuffing playdough up another child's nose.

Fair enough

'So every time a child cries because of the actions of an adult, they have been traumatised?'

In a classroom -- yes. A teacher who makes a child cry has failed unless her aim has been to make that child cry, and crying in school at four is a sign of trauma. I really wonder what sort of schools you all have experience of if you think this is par for the course. Do you go about your business in a state of bitter resentment of parents who don't do enough to get four year old children ready for a whole day of school where they must follow all the rules all the time or risk treatment harsh enough to provoke tears? Do you gird yourselves for daily battle against The Enemy?

A teacher who takes the time to deal with her class in a positive way is not doing it for the benefit of one child in particular either. Every single child gets the same treatment, has the same expectations and consequences, and comes away with a year of great personal growth behind him or her. I have seen it with my own eyes, in the bog standard parish schools and YMCA preschool my DCs attended. No hippies. No 60s happy-clappy-anything-goes. No faffing. No pandering. No cajoling. No creative-empathy-woo-faffiness. Just positive discipline. The results of this sort of approach to classroom management are excellent.

And it has been my observation over the many years that I have seen my DCs off to school that the parents who employ positive discipline at home send the best prepared children to school.

All of the issues with NorthernLurker's DD could have been avoided by a teacher who was prepared to make the effort instead of taking the easy and lazy route. There is no way any teacher worth her salt should have ended up colliding head on with a four year old child. None of the creative methods that would have enabled this teacher to conduct her class without provoking floods of tears from one of the children are in any way Woo-Faffy or steinerish.

All of the issues with Northernlurkers dd could have been avoided by a teacher who was prepared to make the effort instead of taking the easy and lazy route
The teacher requested that she stopped talking, and was told no!!!!!!!
Could the situation have possibly been avoided by Northernlurker teaching her daughter manners?

I feel this thread has maybe moved on a bit from my situation and it's quite instructive how much this issue evidently provokes people.

For the record I don't brush issues under the carpet. Patience, distractions, trust and positive re-enforcement works best with this child but when needed I hit the roof and she (like her sisters) is never left in ignorance when their behaviour is undesirable. So pretty standard parenting I would say.

I've seen reception children in tears because of temper or thwarted desires numerous times, but they usually move on when they find that either things don't change because of the tears, the staff help them move on from their impasse or they are distracted by something else.

'...but what happens when all the rest of the children in the class have been raised with the reasonable expectation that they will sit quietly, be polite, not ignore the teacher and (pretty much) do as they're told?
What happens to them while the teacher is always busy working around the 1 or 2 children who haven't been raised with the same reasonable expectations?'

The teacher is not 'always busy' with the one or two, because the approach is applied to the entire group and issues are ironed out within the first month, the reason being that the teacher capitalises on the fact that the children really want to please the authority figure at this age, and really like to feel that they are living harmoniously together in the classroom, and leads them all by the nose to establish an orderly environment. The DCs were eating out of their teachers' hands at age four. I learned a lot from them.

What you are suggesting here, LeQ, is that if parents are not sending their children to school at age four completely prepared to deal with the group experience there is nothing the teacher can do but respond harshly. I would personally like to see a class of four year olds who are all able to 'sit quietly, be polite, not ignore the teacher and (pretty much) do as they're told' from day one. I don't believe such a group exists. A teacher should really not expect that the parents have anticipated every single need of her classroom and think all she will be doing is a bit of maintenance in the discipline department. This is a lazy and unrealistic assumption. Surely after a few years' experience it should be plain that not all parents are on the same page and that therefore, in acknowledgement of this, a teacher's approach should be to establish her own classroom culture from the outset?

"And Sparks, all of this could have been 'worked around' if the teacher had taken the time to invite comments for the benefit of the group before starting to read."
Where you there Mathanxiety? How can you possibly know what did and didn't happen?'

I can form an opinion based on the fact that the DD here was telling the child beside her that she had the book at home. She wouldn't have felt the need to do this if the teacher had invited comments about the book beforehand. I can also recall the approach of the DCs' teachers, who all asked for comments before and after reading, and who all got to read through books uninterrupted, and I can compare and contrast.

Northern I've volunteered in my local church school for 6 years working with a lovely experienced year R teacher. She has the patience of a saint and even on "off" days she would be mortified to know she had made a 4 year old cry.

I also think the fact she let her go off to the after school club "in floods of tears" is not good. IMO she should have resolved the situation before your dd went off somewhere else.

'All of the issues with Northernlurkers dd could have been avoided by a teacher who was prepared to make the effort instead of taking the easy and lazy route'
The teacher requested that she stopped talking, and was told no!!!!!!!
Could the situation have possibly been avoided by Northernlurker teaching her daughter manners?'

Again, the teacher should have asked for comments to be shared with the group before launching into reading. This should have been the normal routine for a reading session.
Problem of talking out of turn averted? Check.
Pleasant reading experience for all? Check.

Four year olds are not the ideal candidates for being mannerly at all times. What goes for home also goes for school.
'With the explosion of new skills and experiences, preschoolers may appear to understand social rules and they can be reasoned with, but when overloaded may lose self-control. They may test the rules, refuse to cooperate with family routines, become aggressive. Some strategies are useful at this age.

Parents can use language to help solve problems. Help the child learn to use words, rather than actions, to express how she feels.

Negotiation, such as offering the child certain realistic choices, enables her to feel she has some control. Example: Rather than asking a four-year-old if she wants to go to the doctor, ask her what toy she wants to take with her.

Keep in mind that prevention goes a long way. As parents get to know their child's trouble spots, preparing children in advance for what's going to occur can help them manage the situation. And remember, praise and rewards trump punishment'
From my previous New York University link.

LeQ -- My DCs attended a parish school (in the US) that sent students on to a top tier public high school and to extremely selective private high schools in a major metropolitan area where the competition for such places was fierce. The intake for the parish school included children of immigrant parents from eastern Europe, central America and Mexico, Africa and Asia, and from established American families at all points of the socio-economic spectrum. Disciplinary issues were rare even though students went all the way through to age 14. Academic performance was excellent and there was a waiting list for all years. The teachers could take absolutely nothing for granted about the children who showed up for class at age four in the three places where they went to preschool, not even that they had a good grasp of English, and certainly nothing about the readiness of the children for school.

'Any experienced parent/teacher knows most young children can turn the tears on at will, if thwarted.'

No, LeQ -- that is a crock of shit.

'Nothing to do with them being traumatised, or their teacher being cruel...and everything to do with them feeling thwarted, or embarrased, or temper.'

I am nonplussed at your attitude. They really are The Enemy, manipulative and cunning and ungovernable except by the most harsh measures, if I am to take your post seriously.

Feeling thwarted by rules, and capable of being embarrassed by a public reprimand and having a temper are not natural in a child of four? Do teachers not know this and do they really have nothing better by way of a plan to deal with this than to collide head on with someone who by your own admission is not rational and given to egregiousness manipulativeness and uninhibited disruptiveness in the school environment? A grown adult in a position of authority can come up with nothing better than to pull rank and provoke embarrassment or temper or a feeling of being thwarted -- and she wonders what is wrong with the child?

Do you live in Stepford, Mathanxiety?

'...but they usually move on when they find that either things don't change because of the tears, the staff help them move on from their impasse or they are distracted by something else.'

Do you mean in a creative-woo-faffy way there? Surely you are not advocating taking the time to 'work around' some inescapable fact?