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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think dd's teacher was maybe over-reacting a tad?

622 replies

Northernlurker · 28/03/2012 18:15

Apparently dd has been 'very rude' today as per the message from teacher via after school club. Very rude consists of not listening to story but talking to friends and then saying 'no' when told to stop and 'no' when told to move. Now I agree this is very rude and the teacher obviously dealt with it at length because dd was in floods of tears when collected by after school club. I have spoken to dd and she was talking because the book was one we have at home and she was telling her friends as much. At the end of a hot day, at the end of term her attention is shot to pieces as is that of most of the other kids. AIBU to think that a message home about this infraction was overkill. She didn't get a warning, she didn't get a timeout - and really what am i supposed to do about this? i speak to dd about her day every day. i am clear about what is expected but seeing as she's a stubborn 4 who has been at school less than a term i don't expect miracles. Frankly impressed we've got this far.

Or should I be grovelling tomorrow?

OP posts:
LeQueen · 31/03/2012 17:54

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Dustinthewind · 31/03/2012 17:58

Sounds good to me, I could do with a bit of class.

Angelico · 31/03/2012 18:06

OP just read back a bit and saw the bit about your DD having a 'will of iron' - the teacher may well have picked up on this and be making it clear to your DD that she is expected to play by the same rules as everyone else, regardless of wilful she may be. It's a hard lesson to learn but better she learns it now. She has a clear sense now of what is acceptable and what isn't. Once she settles her curiosity and enthusiasm will re-emerge, don't worry. It is a shock for kids and the fact you have mentioned her will of iron is quite telling. You may be able to see it as a virtue in a home context; I assure you a teacher with 30 other kids in the class has no time to indulge it.

Floggingmolly · 31/03/2012 18:58

Mathanxiety!! I don't know whether to be Hmm or Grin at your posts. Do you have children who behave like this? Is it also their teachers fault, with their lack of enthusiasm for teaching?

mathanxiety · 31/03/2012 21:26

I have 5 children, none of whom were exposed to an educational environment at the age of four where they were expected to conform to behaviour expectations that have nothing to do with accepted ideas of child development for that age group.

They were lucky enough to have been in a preschool at age four where their social end emotional development was attended to in an atmosphere where positive reinforcement was the norm and creative methods of crowd control were employed that did not involve losing sight of their stage of development.

Reading a thread like this one, with so many people speaking so harshly about this child of four, and even in full on panic mode about how she will be as a teenager unless her allegedly wild and undisciplined nature wasn't reined in now, or hinting that a classroom would descend into chaos if a teacher didn't keep a tight lid on it at all times makes me realise how very lucky my children were.

Laugh if you like but this general philosophy and these methods were the norm when it came to behaviour management in their four year old classrooms.

The underlying philosophy of the schools they attended (one place for oldest DD, another for DS, and same school for the youngest three) was that positive behaviour is built primarily on good relationships and communication, and that children innately desire good relationships, to please the people they love and care for and seek approval from them. If the relationships are not meeting the children's needs -- if the communication style and practices are poor, then the child is likely to use negative or challenging behaviour in an attempt to have their needs met.

Far from being a free for all, their classrooms were orderly and very productive and they loved going there every day. As I said upthread, I never once saw a child emerge at day's end crying or looking at all distressed and none of them ever reported distressing incidents where another child cried or where there was any sort of unpleasant atmosphere.

mathanxiety · 31/03/2012 21:41

Reasonable expectations for behaviour in four year olds.

Here are some common-sense ideas. There is always a better way to do things in a classroom than the one that leaves a child crying. Ending up with a child crying as NorthernLurker's DD did is a sign that this teacher went about things the wrong way.

Dustinthewind · 31/03/2012 21:46

mathsanxiety, sometimes small children cry because they are cross and thwarted and annoyed that they have been told off. If I judged every parent of a wailing child as a failure who had handled a situation badly, who would be left?
She is 4, and 4 year olds sometimes do behave like that. Unexceptional and part of the maturation process to learn that she needs to think of other people's needs and not just her own.

mathanxiety · 31/03/2012 21:46

All four year olds are likely to be stubborn, and that stubborn streak can be a prominent element in the personality of some. The idea that this one having a 'will of iron' is anything unusual is wrong. A stubborn or persistent personality is one that needs to be worked around and moulded in the right direction, not squashed completely or traumatised out of a child. It is one that can really stand to a child as she gets older.

'Emotional/Social Development?Understanding One's Self and Others

The friendly, talkative and curious preschooler explores ways of relating to people; her self-confidence expands and she likes to please others. She is learning to read the reactions of others, and she can be empathic and show sympathy and concern if a person is hurt or sad. She enjoys playing with other children, but her own needs may prevail and lead to problems in sharing and taking part in complex group play. Although she can still be cranky and stubborn at times, she is more responsive to reasoning.'

Sparks1 · 31/03/2012 22:00

All four year olds are likely to be stubborn, and that stubborn streak can be a prominent element in the personality of some. The idea that this one having a 'will of iron' is anything unusual is wrong. A stubborn or persistent personality is one that needs to be worked around and moulded in the right direction, not squashed completely or traumatised out of a child. It is one that can really stand to a child as she gets older.

I'm sorry but that's complete rubbish. What you are suggesting is indulging the child's misbehaviour.

A teacher has a job to do and a duty to the other pupils. To suggest "working round" any given pupils stubbornness is clearly not workable and would be to the detriment of the other pupils.

We're talking basic manners here, nothing more. A certain level of classroom discipline should always be maintained.

mathanxiety · 31/03/2012 22:02

Again, Dustinthewind, I have never seen a crying child leave the preschools my children attended, and knowing the teachers they had, they would have felt themselves to be a failure if this had ever happened.

Shrugging and saying children have to learn, or that they cry and it's no big deal is both callous and a lazy attitude. A teacher who expects that a four year old child would be traumatised in any way in school and who states that such trauma was both unavoidable and necessary because of the nature of four year old children is one I would not like to leave in charge of my children; thankfully the DCs had teachers of a superior calibre. Four year olds are not a bunch of manipulative little rotters, and it is not a case of them against us.

I judge teachers who take the easy route to classroom order. They are paid to do a job in a professional manner, and they are not getting it done no matter how it may look on the surface if a child is leaving the room in tears. Parents -- a different matter. They are not being paid, they have for the most part no training, and there are no professional standards to adhere to.

There are more ways of managing the behaviour of small children than the bull at a gate method.

Floggingmolly · 31/03/2012 22:04

Mathanxiety. I take it you're not in the U.K.? Because our children have to be "exposed to an educational environment at the age of four" by law. The child in question is not a pre-schooler, but a fully paid up member of a reception class, many of whom will also have joined very soon after their fourth birthday. The question remains, what if all the children in a class of 30 behaved as they pleased without consequences, how would the ensuing chaos be of any benefit into any member of the class?

Floggingmolly · 31/03/2012 22:04

To, not into.

Dustinthewind · 31/03/2012 22:05

So every time a child cries because of the actions of an adult, they have been traumatised?

Dustinthewind · 31/03/2012 22:08

'Parents -- a different matter. They are not being paid, they have for the most part no training, and there are no professional standards to adhere to. '

Which is sometimes why children arrive in school and continue to progress through school with very different levels of socialisation, empathy, anger management, toileting, skills sets. All of which need dealing with and developing by the school staff.

Oakmaiden · 31/03/2012 22:08

Molly - no they don't. It is not a legal requirement for your child to receive any form of education until the term AFTER they turn 5. For what it is worth.

Even then, you don't have to choose to send them to school.

Sparks1 · 31/03/2012 22:11

Four year olds are not a bunch of manipulative little rotters

Maybe not. But nor should they dictate the classroom environment.

In the scenario given by the OP the teacher has behaved in an entirely appropriate way.

LeQueen · 31/03/2012 22:18

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LeQueen · 31/03/2012 22:20

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LeeCoakley · 31/03/2012 22:21

Oh well said LeQueen!

And love woo-faffy - what a great word!

mathanxiety · 31/03/2012 22:22

And Sparks, all of this could have been 'worked around' if the teacher had taken the time to invite comments for the benefit of the group before starting to read. A teacher of four year olds should understand at the very least that they like to relate things to themselves and talk about themselves, and she should also be trying at all times to make reading a very positive experience for all. Picking fights with the children instead is very poor form. 'Working around' stubbornness is far better than ending up with a bawling child on your hands upsetting and distracting the others no? 'Working around' usually means less and not more problems in the long run. 'Working around' does not mean indulging a child's bad behaviour. It means knowing what are reasonable expectations, planning your lessons and modifying your style to take these reasonable expectations into account, heading off problems before they arise -- it involves work in other words. It involves making the effort to integrate newcomers into the classroom in tangible ways that this teacher has not done.

My DCs' preschool teachers always asked for comments both before and after reading and tried to mix in comments about getting their parents to get them a library card, getting their parents to read to them at home, etc. They asked the children to raise a hand in order to make a comment and to wait to be called on before speaking. They reminded the children of this element of classroom etiquette before soliciting comments and children speaking out of turn were not acknowledged. Two weeks into the year, everyone had got the concept. Children joining after the start of the year were not expected to pick everything up from the others -- they had a period of adjustment where the TA stayed near them to explain routines and remind them of rules. There was a huge amount pf planning and anticipation of problems with the hope of minimising the negative effects of the behaviour issues that go with four year olds on the teaching aims.

Floggingmolly · 31/03/2012 22:23

Oakmaiden. You can bypass Reception completely and start your child in Year 1 when they turn 5, true, but this can cause as many problems as it solves. You cannot simply delay Reception. Home schooling is of course always an option, but as the op has chosen neither of those paths, she has to deal with the situation she is actually in.

OhDoAdmitMrsDeVere · 31/03/2012 22:26

She is four.

DaisySteiner · 31/03/2012 22:26

"And Sparks, all of this could have been 'worked around' if the teacher had taken the time to invite comments for the benefit of the group before starting to read."

Where you there Mathanxiety? How can you possibly know what did and didn't happen?

LeQueen · 31/03/2012 22:27

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Dustinthewind · 31/03/2012 22:27

That might have been what sparked the extended conversation... Smile