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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to think dd's teacher was maybe over-reacting a tad?

622 replies

Northernlurker · 28/03/2012 18:15

Apparently dd has been 'very rude' today as per the message from teacher via after school club. Very rude consists of not listening to story but talking to friends and then saying 'no' when told to stop and 'no' when told to move. Now I agree this is very rude and the teacher obviously dealt with it at length because dd was in floods of tears when collected by after school club. I have spoken to dd and she was talking because the book was one we have at home and she was telling her friends as much. At the end of a hot day, at the end of term her attention is shot to pieces as is that of most of the other kids. AIBU to think that a message home about this infraction was overkill. She didn't get a warning, she didn't get a timeout - and really what am i supposed to do about this? i speak to dd about her day every day. i am clear about what is expected but seeing as she's a stubborn 4 who has been at school less than a term i don't expect miracles. Frankly impressed we've got this far.

Or should I be grovelling tomorrow?

OP posts:
Feenie · 05/04/2012 07:06

Clareloup, a teacher who sets up a situation where a child could either move as ordered or say No exposing herself to the 50/50 chance of being put on the spot and having to respond 'appropriately' is a teacher who has lost control of her class and of the child.

Cobblers.

exoticfruits · 05/04/2012 07:17

Everyone works out a style to suit themselves.
Maths talked a lot about the teacher that she watched story telling (I don't know if it was more than one) and seemed very taken with the hand holding technique. I would never do that, mainly because at 5yrs (I only started school after my 5th birthday so can't talk for 4yrs) DCs didn't like holding my hand, they tended to be quite hot and sweaty.
I wouldn't have cried, and I wouldn't have refused, so Mathswould have happily watching thinking 'how wonderful' when in actual fact story time had been ruined for me-or doesn't one DC matter if they don't cry and they just suffer in silence?

Do you really think that classroom management is not one of the primary things learned, in the best way possible through practical example and practice?
You can have any amount of theory but nothing beats example and experience
You also have to change it according to the DCs. Hand squeezing might work well in some classes but I can think of at least one where I wouldn't use it. One size never fits all. Even with my own DCs my method of getting DS1 out of a strop couldn't be used on DS2-he needed a very different approach.

I'm not sure why you have taken such a dislike to LeQueen, she only asked the questions that I would like to know the answers to-and I don't think that you have given the answers to them yet.

exoticfruits · 05/04/2012 07:20

Cobblers indeed. She was 100% sure that the DC would move-she wasn't giving a choice.
I agree that you should avoid confrontation, but I don't call moving a DC confrontation-a minor irritation having to ask her.

Feenie · 05/04/2012 07:32

Quite.

exoticfruits · 05/04/2012 07:37

I am not a fan of Steiner schools but I don't see why Maths is so scathing.

On story time they say:

'Story time

The morning concludes with story time. Story time is always a very special event. The mood
is hushed and the expectation is that children will listen and respect that this is a quiet time.
The children are told (never read) many wonderful stories that belong to the literary heritage
of the culture of childhood, sometimes supported by a puppet show by the teacher. Fairy
tales and nature stories address the feeling realm and awaken a moral sense. A well-told
story creates an appreciation for the human voice and the beauty and rhythms of language.
It also helps to extend vocabulary and to aid the development of a good memory. Children
love to hear the same story many times and delight in the repetition which brings the
opportunity for children to familiarise themselves with the material and to deepen their
relationship to it. By the time the story ends, parents/carers are waiting outside to collect the
children.'

It seems fine to me.

BoneyBackJefferson · 05/04/2012 09:31

exoticfruits

you are forgetting that the steiner schools obviously don't conform to Maths' one size fits all view of the classroom as it hasn't followed her prescribed route.

TheOriginalSteamingNit · 05/04/2012 09:48

I wouldn't have cried, and I wouldn't have refused, so Mathswould have happily watching thinking 'how wonderful' when in actual fact story time had been ruined for me-or doesn't one DC matter if they don't cry and they just suffer in silence?

Spot on, EQ.

bruffin · 05/04/2012 09:51

The hand holding seems wrong to me as well, as it seems to have been used to prevent fidgeting. I am not a teacher but my sister was a sen trained TA and I was also told by dcs teachers that some children (both sen and nt) concentrate better if they are allowed to fiddle or fidget a little.

exoticfruits · 05/04/2012 10:04

My mother was only saying the other day that it made her really sad when I came home and said that DCs didn't like holding my hand-I remember it well-these things stay with you.
I always look out for the shy little DCs, who don't say if they are upset. It seems to me from Maths way of doing things that those who make a great fuss,e.g. OP's DC, get taken care of and their needs get put before those who don't make a fuss. I hate any system where the forceful get their own way.
I don't have a problem with DCs have something to hold if the fidget but I don't see why it has to involve another DC.

mumblesmum · 05/04/2012 11:03

Isn't the OP situation just a simple case of the child having to a) learn to respect an adult, b) understand 'my turn, your turn' and c) learn social cues?

I think the sooner she does this (with the support of her parents), the happier she will be at school.

gafhyb · 05/04/2012 11:18

The issue is that you do not see your blase attitude to crying in school as a problem. A teacher who thinks she can't manage a class successfully without a child ending up crying is a failure when it comes to class management. A teacher who assumes that her strategies are going to involve crying children at some point and proceeds regardless is a failure.
Children crying at home is a completely different matter.
I am 99.9% certain that my DCs have not cried in school, OriginalJamie

gafhyb · 05/04/2012 11:19

sorry - The post above was from me, OriginalJamie

gafhyb · 05/04/2012 11:20

cme = characterise me

exoticfruits · 05/04/2012 12:00

You can't possibly know that they haven't cried at school, since they often can't remember if they have had lunch or not , they may not mention it. They cry if they fall over, they cry if they fall out with a friend, they cry for 101 reasons.

Maths appears to think that one teacher's methods work for everyone and all children-they do not.
It makes a huge difference if you know the class or not and as a supply teacher I simply wouldn't do the hand holding with a new class.
I have lots of ideas of my own.
I would love it if the teacher she was watching had left Maths with the story and the class-I could bet money on the fact that she would have problems with the same strategy. The teacher already had a relationship- and that makes the difference. The DCs knew her boundaries and they would test them with anyone new!

letseatgrandma · 05/04/2012 12:15

A teacher should not be in the position where she is responding to situations the children create.

What utter piffle. Teachers respond to situations that children create all the time!??

thunksheadontable · 05/04/2012 12:26

Wow. 22 pages. Really? The child is four. She acted like a more or less typically active four year old and messed up the social script of storytime for a minute. She was told this. She cried.

It wasn't massively rude or insolent, it's not really a big deal at four. Four year olds are a bit impulsive. They learn, over time, to be less so. Big crap.

I do think it's overkill to make such a big deal out of such a small incident. Just deal with it at school. Are we really in such a state the teachers have to report on every little thing they say to a child so the parent knows this? I don't want to know about normal behaviour that required adjustment.

Floggingmolly · 05/04/2012 12:59

The 22 pages are largely due to Mathanxiety and her travelling circus, Thunk

eatingspiders · 05/04/2012 13:31

20 pages to math and 2 to the OP's question

mathanxiety · 05/04/2012 15:00

ExoticFruits, take a look at some of the Steiner threads on MN, if they have not been pulled. Steiner ed is a bit like a certain baby care guru when it comes to vigilance about comments people make about it.

mathanxiety · 05/04/2012 15:10

You can have any amount of theory but nothing beats example and experience
-- And yet, when I speak of examples I have seen, my qualifications (and my sanity) have been questioned.

You also have to change it according to the DCs.
-- And yet, all four year old children must listen quietly, must do what they are told when they are told...

Hand squeezing might work well in some classes but I can think of at least one where I wouldn't use it.
-- I didn't say there was just hand holding. There was also a surprise box (chinese takeaway plain white box) that contained a sticker. Chatty children would be asked to hold the box and allowed to open it if they had remained quiet. Ordering a child to move might work well in come classes or with some children but I can think of at least one where it backfired spectacularly.

One size never fits all. Even with my own DCs my method of getting DS1 out of a strop couldn't be used on DS2-he needed a very different approach.
-- One size never fits all: well duh.
Do you want a long, boring list of strategies I have seen working in various situations, that did not involve direct confrontation of tired, hot children? If I gave you some examples would people with short little attention spans accuse me of boring them to death?
What works on one child doesn't work on another, yet you think it is fine for teachers to adopt the one size fits all method even if that means a child ends up crying.

bruffin · 05/04/2012 15:21

Maths you don't know this teacher used one size fit all, this is all in your imagination.
People on this thread have told you time and time again that you are making assumptions on no evidence whatsoever, but you are not listening and carry on with your own theories

Floggingmolly · 05/04/2012 15:25

Do you want a long boring list of strategies I have seen working?.
Haven't you already bored on for over 20 pages, Math? What the hell else can you say to prove your non existent point?

gafhyb · 05/04/2012 15:47

God, just read this all back. It has got so ill-tempered (me included).

mathanxiety · 05/04/2012 15:52

If you are so bored, upset, whatever, then hide the thread FloggingMolly.

Bruffin, I am listening. Obv I am not agreeing. You and others who hold your opinion of this teacher are equally making assumptions not just about her but about the child.

mathanxiety · 05/04/2012 15:58

You know, one thing that seems to have escaped attention here is the fact that the other children were expected to get on with their business while their classmate cried. They packed their things and went home or to the after school club while she cried ('floods of tears').

We expose four year olds to a scene like that and a few years later we ask how we have ended up with so much bullying in schools, how we have ended up with children lacking in empathy for their classmates.

There are consequences to the attitude we display towards small children; we are teaching them in every little detail of the classroom, not just in the formal lessons. The social and emotional lessons they absorb from the learning environment will last just as long as the reading and arithmetic.