to think dd's teacher was maybe over-reacting a tad?

[Northernlurker]

Apparently dd has been 'very rude' today as per the message from teacher via after school club. Very rude consists of not listening to story but talking to friends and then saying 'no' when told to stop and 'no' when told to move. Now I agree this is very rude and the teacher obviously dealt with it at length because dd was in floods of tears when collected by after school club. I have spoken to dd and she was talking because the book was one we have at home and she was telling her friends as much. At the end of a hot day, at the end of term her attention is shot to pieces as is that of most of the other kids. AIBU to think that a message home about this infraction was overkill. She didn't get a warning, she didn't get a timeout - and really what am i supposed to do about this? i speak to dd about her day every day. i am clear about what is expected but seeing as she's a stubborn 4 who has been at school less than a term i don't expect miracles. Frankly impressed we've got this far.

Or should I be grovelling tomorrow?

I think Math's comments to and about other posters have been at least as insulting as anyone has been to her. Her attempts to grind others into submission by pouring out wordy posts and her questioning and doubting of others' professionalism and ability are indicative of attempts at the sort of controlling behaviour she condemns so passionately on numerous other threads.

'I'm just veering between anger and genuine confusion here, and I keep thinking I must be missing something, mustn't I, because grown adults who are clearly articulate and intelligent can't be so disingenuous????'

Yes, LeQ, maybe you should spend some time listening to that little voice of yours.

Well, you had higher expectations of us, Mathanxiety, and I have higher expectations of 4 year olds.

This thread is making uncomfortable reading now. Whoever it was who made the comment about the female equivalent of cock-waving right at the start of the thread couldn't have been more right.

Surely there comes a point where everyone just agrees to disagree, although that so many people are unshackably convinced their approach is 'right' when their countries' education results don't stack up all that well is odd to watch. A point that continues to be studiously ignored.

For my part, I am more convinced than ever that 4-year olds should still be in pre-school, in a less structured pre-school environment.

Again, I don't disagree that the OP's daughter was rude and in the wrong, but ultimately the whole thing would have impacted far less on a pre-school class thn a reception one, and arguably wouodn't have ended with a child in tears.

Ilovesooty -- would HTs be selecting inset courses on classroom management far more frequently than any other area of professional development if this wasn't the area where teachers were falling down the most/feeling most at sea and the effects were not being felt in their performance in actually teaching their subjects? This is the growth area in the education arena

It's a growth area because it's necessary to be constantly reflecting on good practice and because the inclusive nature of UK schools now means that teachers deal with increasingly complex behaviours. It doesn't mean teachers are failing. As I said, if they can't uphold required standards they don't progress up the pay scale.

I don't know why you think you deserve my special attention on this thread
Delusions of grandeur, or what?

FYI, Mathanxiety, there are many classroom management courses because there are many children with behaviour problems.

Problems which are the results much more far reaching and heartbreaking issues than an over-privileged (in comparison) little girl who says 'no' to someone.

Actually, many courses are crap, also - snake oil. Have sat through some where the trainers - just like you - had sat in a classroom and thought they knew it all.

You could set yourself up quite nicely with what you've spouted on here

Math I hope my DS has teachers like you.

I don't think that words like rude or insolent apply to children, but my DS is 19 months, not 4. I'm not an expert.

They could apply to some of the posters on here though.

Currently DS attends a creche that I am overall very pleased with. Some days instead of the 2 hours sleep he needs, he might get 1. Then there are episodes where he has bitten other children in the afternoon. It only ever happens in the afternoon when he does not get adequate sleep. When he has his sleep and all is rosy staff say things to me like ' oh he's been very good today' implying that he is not good other days. To me he is good every day but sometimes he is overtired - a subtle difference.

Oh and in case you think he is the class menace, I collected him with a bite incident report this week where the other child had left a mark on his arm.
I don't think the other child was bold, rude or insolent either. And it happened in the afternoon too.

math - manipulate my words, ignore my supplementary posts. Children cry at school. I'm sure yours have. I know mine have. Children cry at home. That is what I meant.

I was going to go. I really was going to go. But I have to challenge this:

"so many people are unshackably convinced their approach is 'right' when their countries' education results don't stack up all that well is odd to watch."

UK education has slipped in international ranks in recent years, this is true. However, it is still of a comparable level with countries such as France and the US (which is, I believe, where math's children were educated. For example, whilst the US scored 6 points higher than the UK in Reading, they scored 5 lower in Maths and 12 lower in science.

Math doesn't just speak for the US system - which is still, overall, notably above the UK in any of the rankings you care to peruse - but also for my country and others like ours which are at the top of the rankings, and where children don't start school until 5. 4 year olds ate still in a pre-school environment.

Everyone here is convinced they are right and yet the quality of education doesn't quite bear that unshakable belief out.

And to whoever said children cry, at home and at school - yes, they do. Hopefully not too often because an adult has made them cry, though.

'Do you really think that teachers don't attend training on behavioural management once they're qualified?'

I already posted that I questioned what training teachers get in this area and was told basically none. This is especially ture if they do the post-grad teaching. I was told and I quote (by HT) ,'it depends on their experience when they are doing their training'. So we have to hope they are learning from someone who had an understanding of behaviour, why it occurs and how to promote positive behaviour in a group setting..............

I pretty much agree with everything Maths has said. I understand her long posts as trying to explain where she is coming from and why ( awaits flaming) and obviously cares deeply about children , in general as individual beings and I live in Scotland! My expecations of teaching staff here are similar to those of Maths and I have experienced several teachers who meet and have exceeded even these expectaions!.

As service users we have the right to question service providers and hold them accountable for the good or less than acceptable standards they work to. It's the world we live in.

I too have said I am going, but I do feel strongly that children need advocates and I am happy to be on of those advocates :)

Have a happy evening everyone :)

I think the crux of this whole debate is that people simply don't believe approaches like Math's could possibly work in a living, breathing classroom and this is why she is getting a hard time.

Baldrick

actually, it is more the fact that approaches like hers take place already, and children still do need to be asked to move, modify their behaviour, and do end up, occasionally, crying

I'm off now

OMG...the child was ruining the story for everyone else and was asked to move, what's the issue? The child then refused to move (this is quite a rude response and doesn't happen very often within the classroom environment) and the teacher had to respond appropriately. Of course, if the child then became upset (because of a situation the child had created) then of course the teacher would want the parents to be aware of what had occured. That should be the end of it. The birthday on the wall thing is a completely different issue, if you have a problem with that, then deal with that.

I think the crux of this whole debate is that people simply don't believe approaches like Math's could possibly work in a living, breathing classroom and this is why she is getting a hard time.

I think that we are generally fed up because many of us actually have the hands on experience that Maths seems to lack and are somewhat insulted when she comes up with classroom management ideas for reading a story-as if it isn't already normal practice. As I said earlier-'teaching your grandmother to suck eggs'!

I also fail to understand the 5 hours on behaviour management. I had far more and it is on-going anyway-I have been on courses and lessons are observed -you get feed back.

The issue, clareloup, is that a child refused to move - and now the UK's Literacy levels have slipped in the world wide rankings, goddammit! Who knew.....

LeQ, I don't know why you think you deserve my special attention on this thread, or why answers that I have provided for everyone else must be repeated for you. Maybe it has something to do with your Steiner education.

Meow.
I can't see why a simple problem-as outlined by clareloup-causes such insults.

I bet OP's DD has forgotten all about it!

'Children cry at school. I'm sure yours have. I know mine have. Children cry at home. That is what I meant.'
I know what you meant. The issue is that you do not see your blase attitude to crying in school as a problem. A teacher who thinks she can't manage a class successfully without a child ending up crying is a failure when it comes to class management. A teacher who assumes that her strategies are going to involve crying children at some point and proceeds regardless is a failure.
Children crying at home is a completely different matter.
I am 99.9% certain that my DCs have not cried in school, OriginalJamie.

Feenie:
'Well, you had higher expectations of us, Mathanxiety, and I have higher expectations of 4 year olds.'
...And sadly it seems we were both unreasonable in our expectations.

Clareloup, a teacher who sets up a situation where a child could either move as ordered or say No exposing herself to the 50/50 chance of being put on the spot and having to respond 'appropriately' is a teacher who has lost control of her class and of the child.

In this case, since you argue that the child created the situation (clearly you see nothing amiss with that scenario) the teacher failed twice. First for allegedly letting the child create a situation and second for exposing herself to the possibility of a refusal of her order. A teacher should not be in the position where she is responding to situations the children create.

The measure of the kind of approach to discipline I have described here is not even to be found primarily in scores for reading, etc. What the British approach has produced is a society where everyone knows their place, where people don't like to venture too far above their 'station' and dread falling below it, and in addition to the straitjacket of classism there is the largest academic on-achieving 'tail' in the world, first noted back in the 1920s. When British education is good it is extremely good, but for the most part it is ho-hum to horrible.

math, most people taking PGCEs spend a significant amount of time in the classroom being mentored by very experienced teachers. Do you really think that classroom management is not one of the primary things learned, in the best way possible through practical example and practice?

I'm not a teacher (woudln't touch it with a bargepole!) but have several in the family and lots of friends who went on from university into teacher training.

Oh, and my children have been at primary schools in the UK, the US and now Canada. Far more similarities than differences in teaching styles as far as I could see (different educational content and emphasis on different skills, but not much difference to basic class management). The only thing that stood out is how much bribery with sweets happened in the US setting, where in the UK stickers would probably have been used. They have had a variety of excellent and merely good teachers. dd loved them all, as is her nature, got glowing reports from all of them, but still occasionally got upset when things didn't go her way. ds threw massive wobblies all the way from nursery onwards, but was still cherished and (mostly) very well taught. A few tears on occasion is really really not that big a deal. Some of the other stuff the OP mentioned is much more concerning.

They are only going to be as good as their mentor.

Without a foundation in child development and child psychology they will not really know if their expectations of behaviour are age appropriate and they will have no idea if the mentor's expectations and approach are the best possible either. While being mentored, they will be seeing a classroom with uncritical eyes and perhaps attracted to what works even though it may have unseen negative effects. Maybe not quite a case of the blind leading the blind, but they really need that solid understanding of child development and child psychology as well as classroom practice. One without the other is not enough of an educational foundation for the profession.