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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think dd's teacher was maybe over-reacting a tad?

622 replies

Northernlurker · 28/03/2012 18:15

Apparently dd has been 'very rude' today as per the message from teacher via after school club. Very rude consists of not listening to story but talking to friends and then saying 'no' when told to stop and 'no' when told to move. Now I agree this is very rude and the teacher obviously dealt with it at length because dd was in floods of tears when collected by after school club. I have spoken to dd and she was talking because the book was one we have at home and she was telling her friends as much. At the end of a hot day, at the end of term her attention is shot to pieces as is that of most of the other kids. AIBU to think that a message home about this infraction was overkill. She didn't get a warning, she didn't get a timeout - and really what am i supposed to do about this? i speak to dd about her day every day. i am clear about what is expected but seeing as she's a stubborn 4 who has been at school less than a term i don't expect miracles. Frankly impressed we've got this far.

Or should I be grovelling tomorrow?

OP posts:
exoticfruits · 03/04/2012 19:25

However are people going to manage in education when they come across a real problem? Hmm

ilovesooty · 03/04/2012 19:27

And, of course, the teachers pays taxes too.

OriginalJamie · 03/04/2012 19:27

I would be very interested to know how often this particular scenario is enacted in your DCs classes every single day, and you have not been there to witness it.

I would guess that it has been.

The fact that your DCs have not mentioned it suggests either

a) they don't say "no" to the teacher (and they've benifited from the fact that those who do are picked up on their behaviour)

or

b) they do, and it hasn't scarred them

exoticfruits · 03/04/2012 19:27

You can only have one 'free spirit' if the rest are not-it doesn't seem fair to me! 24 'free spirits' are unworkable-it becomes the survival of the fittest.

OriginalJamie · 03/04/2012 19:28

that was to math

ilovesooty · 03/04/2012 19:29

Well, exotic ... obviously real problems would never occur if all 4 year olds were allowed to indulge themselves, talk whenever they had any thoughts to impart and explore every situation where a direct instruction might occur Hmm

exoticfruits · 03/04/2012 19:30

Perhaps as 'consumers of education' we can vote -and I vote for the teacher who stops a 4 yr old spoiling the story for the rest and moves them.

exoticfruits · 03/04/2012 19:32

All the rest of the class obviously want to explore everything OP's DC says-I think not! In reality they want her to be moved and to be quiet!

LeQueen · 03/04/2012 19:50

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LeQueen · 03/04/2012 19:54

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LeQueen · 03/04/2012 19:56

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OriginalJamie · 03/04/2012 19:58

LeQueen

Well, I do agree, whilst also thinking that one of the things that children at this age have to learn is to temper egocentricity, and poor impulse control, of the good of the class. TBF, parents can't really teach that at home. But they have to trust that teachers can do that, and remember that their child is one of many.

OriginalJamie · 03/04/2012 19:58

sorry for the good of the class

Sunscorch · 03/04/2012 20:12

The thing that totally bemuses me about math's position is the de facto assumption that the teacher is at fault when a child doesn't meet the teacher's expectations.

To me, that's bass-ackwards.

mathanxiety · 03/04/2012 20:40

Ariadne, I don't think a child of four would even know the word disrespectful, let alone be consciously rude

"I don't think asking for comments beforehand is going to affect the likelihood of them chiming in with comments during the story." Well, I seem to recall that you started off your argument on this thread by suggesting that if the teacher had done just that then all problems would have been avoided. I quote: "She should have invited comments about the book before she started, maybe asking who has heard the story before, who has it at home, what do they think the story is about based on the front cover, who do they think the main character is, based on the cover, etc. That way the children would have been drawn into it and all the chit chat would have been dispensed with."

I was referring to the chit chat before the story there, and not any comments during the story. It would surely be useful for a teacher to ascertain ahead of time whether the story had been read or heard by the children beforehand anyway -- what if they had all heard it before? How could she try to keep a few who had heard it before from spoiling it for the others? Do you ask the children who chime in whether they have heard it before? If you did, then I suspect you could head off the problems you described using the creative strategies you find useful for these exigencies.

'Shall we, as a class, sit and listen to every child's passing thought, or is the teacher allowed to end a discussion so that the book can actually be opened?'

Yes, why not? Unless you are possessed of some sort of tunnel vision about the reading of the book, what is the problem?

LeQ, getting a story read is hardly the sort of emergency occasion that requires immediate obedience to a direct order, now is it? Again, I have seen my so-called luffly approach working in the classrooms where my DCs spent their time aged four, five and six; five children x three years each = 15 years of observing teachers in various volunteering roles. It really is a shame that so many otherwise intelligent people in the UK are so ignorant of positive discipline and apparently incapable of imagining a discipline model based on different assumptions about children's development than those of the Victorians.

(And btw LeW, that post you quoted at 19:54:58 was from Ilovesooty and was meant to be ironic..)

OriginalJamie -- being picked up on behaviour does not necessarily mean that a child should end up crying. I have never seen discipline result in tears in the classrooms my DCs attended because it was always done in a win-win context that caused as little disruption to the rest of the group as possible. The result has been children who were eager to go to school and who tried their best to co-operate while they were there. Sad again that this might be inconceivable to people in the UK.

'Sorry, mathanxiety, but as a 'consumer of education', you are most definitely not entitled to make so many assumptions about a teacher you have never, ever met over the internet.

There is no reason to assume the teacher was rude - and no reason for you to challenge my assumption that she may not have been. And that's just the first of many that you base your now ludicrous arguments on.'

Sorry right back atcha, Feenie, but as a member of this site and as a consumer of education I most certainly am entitled to make assumptions, and as a tax-paying, sentient and educated adult I am entitled to judge anyone I please. I am especially entitled to judge the professionalism of a teacher as I am a parent. If posters are going to compare the role of a teacher to that of a parent then surely parents are allowed to judge the performance of teachers. My conclusion is that a teacher who sends a crying child on to her next activity is one who has failed that child and the others too, who have been distracted by the hullabaloo.

When teachers come here on MN and make comments about this child, her parent, children in general and parents in general, I am entitled to form an opinion of them in their role as teachers too, and to extrapolate whatever I please from their posts. If you post on MN claiming to speak as a teacher, then other members of MN are fully entitled to tell you what they think of your performance and attitudes as a teacher. If you as a teacher can dismiss posts by a parent concerned about her child as 'some gossip over the internet' then (1) what are you doing on this thread? and (2) I have a right to judge your attitude and find it wanting.

Soverylucky, you could nip down and offer a critique of the surgeon. People do that a lot. They have a right to, though usually the form of their critique is a suit filed against the health authority but sometimes against the doctor him or herself, and the payment of compensation for negligence and lack of professionalism is not unknown. Professionals are not above criticism.

Ilovesooty, how are exploring the world around them or engaging in give and take with children not elements of a learning process? Does all learning have to involve books? Are the social and emotional aspects of the lives of four year olds in a classroom not important?

'All the rest of the class obviously want to explore everything OP's DC says-I think not! In reality they want her to be moved and to be quiet!'

ExoticFruits, you were there? You could read their minds?

LeQueen · 03/04/2012 20:50

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

missmapp · 03/04/2012 20:52

I read this thread a few days ago, I cant believe its still going- so judgmental .

maths- i wish i was as perfect as you would so obviously be. as a teacher, this thread makes me glad its the holidays ( tho' that will obviously make me lazy and unprofessional- ho hum!)

LeeCoakley · 03/04/2012 20:53

Well obviously enough to realise that it is perfectly ok to promise a story then never get round to it because some PFBs won't stop talking...

gettinghappy · 03/04/2012 20:53

Boneybackjefferson I do not intend to home school at all. Teachers are well paid, highly educated professionals and as such I expect them to interact with my child in a professional manner. Feeling unwell is not an excuse for being unpleasant IMO and it would not be acceptable for a bank clerk to be rude to customers because he/she was feeling unwell would it? So therefore it is also not acceptable in the classroom. I have worked for many years with children of different ages, some with very complex and challenging behaviour and am not expecting miracles. I sin=mply expect the professional to do a professional job as follows (and in no specific order) ;
a) Be effective communicators with the children in their class
b) Have a firm understanding of child develoment and what is age/stage

appropriate behaviour,
c) Understand and be able to manage sometimes quite complex behaviours d)
be competent educators,
d) be competent in understanding and managing the dynamic of a large group
of children
e) Like children and have positive expectations for them ALL.

If they can't do that then I don't think they should be teaching, particularly primary aged children.

When people do a good job I am the first to tell them and to write to the 'high heid yins' to let them know how pleased I am with a person/service. However if you are paid to do a job and don't do it well then that also needs to be noted, opportunity given for improvement and if nothing changes for the better then appropriate action taken. And if no-one complains then people will continue to do a crap job!

MrsHeffley · 03/04/2012 20:54

Bloody hell Math have you seen the size of your last post!!!!Confused

Sunscorch · 03/04/2012 20:54

Yes, why not? Unless you are possessed of some sort of tunnel vision about the reading of the book, what is the problem?

Why not?
Does that apply to every activity?
Shall I listen to a class' every errant thought before setting them off on a numeracy investigation? Before starting a football match in PE? Before setting off on a trip to the local Gurdwara?

I think most parents would rather I actually did my job and taught the children something.

TheOriginalSteamingNit · 03/04/2012 21:02

Hardly fair to the children who want to hear the story, is it?

Angelico · 03/04/2012 21:03

To my amazement this thread (child defies teacher, gets told off, cries, the end) is still rumbling along a good week later... although presumably the poor OP has now fled if she has any sense.

Bletchley · 03/04/2012 21:04

I think it is pretty clear that math is not a teacher and has no experience at all in the classroom

gettinghappy · 03/04/2012 21:04

Sorry didn't check my last post befor eposting, bit of an oops with 2 x d).....

math You and I have never met,but we do seem to share and understanding and a respect for children as human beings in their own right.

I am not going to post any more here as I really can't believe the poor expectations some people have of those entursted with the care of their children 25 - 30 hours per week!

Looking after someone else's child is THE most important job in the world, nothing else comes close.........coming from someone who does look after other people's children.

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