to think dd's teacher was maybe over-reacting a tad?

[Northernlurker]

Apparently dd has been 'very rude' today as per the message from teacher via after school club. Very rude consists of not listening to story but talking to friends and then saying 'no' when told to stop and 'no' when told to move. Now I agree this is very rude and the teacher obviously dealt with it at length because dd was in floods of tears when collected by after school club. I have spoken to dd and she was talking because the book was one we have at home and she was telling her friends as much. At the end of a hot day, at the end of term her attention is shot to pieces as is that of most of the other kids. AIBU to think that a message home about this infraction was overkill. She didn't get a warning, she didn't get a timeout - and really what am i supposed to do about this? i speak to dd about her day every day. i am clear about what is expected but seeing as she's a stubborn 4 who has been at school less than a term i don't expect miracles. Frankly impressed we've got this far.

Or should I be grovelling tomorrow?

There's an old adage about assumptions, isn't there?

Something about making an ass of yourself?

Well said LeQueen

This thread has become totally comical now...and all because a kid cried after being told off for being naughty.

You couldn't make it up!

math -

I like the idea about holding hands. Might result in child X pulling child Y over or something, but then you'd have a strategy for that that wouldn't involve telling anyone off ......

Mathanxiety. Your last post states I don't think asking for comments beforehand is going to affect the likelihood of them chiming in with comments during the story
Are you feeling quite well? That this wasn't done was the whole basis of your ridiculous diatribe arguement, even though you had no notion of what actually happened in the reality the rest of us inhabit...

What about a fire/fire drill? Say a child refused to line up, because they were doing something much more interesting, and said 'no'? 'Tis the natural way of four year olds after all . Should we try to engage and divert them? Debate with them? Or expect the child, for once, to do exactly as they have been told?

The teacher had to react, she has to keep control of the class and therefore can't tolerate disrespect. THe teacher was right to tell your daugher off. Maybe she cried because she is sensitive, but that is no excuse to get away with it.

Let it go and move on.

This thread is insane. Imagine any teacher having the time to solicit the views of all 24+ children in the class before reading a book.

Children should do what they are told, when they are told to do so. It might not be 100% fair and in an ideal world every little Tommy or Jemima should be able to have their say.

The truth is, if teachers operated like that, behaviour in schools in this country would fall apart within months and nobody would learn anything at all.

My assumption is based on the fact that the child told her neighbour she had the book at home. That is one of the first things a child would have said to the teacher if she had been asked for input.

No, I wasn't there, but I am not a fantasist either.

Feenie -- you are prepared to say this teacher handled it perfectly despite the fact that you weren't there either and the fact that a child who was enthusiastic about a book was sent on to the after school club in tears? There has been plenty of additional information provided by NorthernLurler about the experience her child is having in this lazy and unprofessional teacher's classroom but I see you have either not read that or chosen to discount it for whatever reason. Everything I have said about this teacher is based on both my own observations in many classrooms and on what NL has told us here.

My opinion about her performance as a teacher is not a personal attack on her or vitriolic in any way. As a 'consumer' of education I am entitled to judge the performance she delivers and so are all parents, who pay her salary after all through taxes, and whose children are entrusted to her. I expect a high standard of performance from my children's teachers and so far with only a couple of exceptions I have not been disappointed. I judge them and I watch them. I have a right to do so.

A parent can examine the professionalism of a teacher; I am sorry to see that there are many teachers here who would not take kindly to that idea and who would I suspect take it personally if they thought they were being scrutinised in this way and instead of accepting that their approach might need fine tuning they would gripe about parents instead. Plenty of remarks about parents here on this thread make me see that teachers can be very jealous of their 'turf' regardless of the fact that their job requires daily close involvement with the small children of other people.

I am perfectly able to believe she didn't handle it perfectly.

But perfection is not what you will ever get, because you are balancing the needs of a whole set of individuals.

Math - "Oakmaiden, why not ask the children who have read it before to make sure they can keep the secret, and make it some sort of game?" Obviously - doesn't work with every child though.

"Would you not see if there was an alternative to having those who knew the ending spoiling it for everyone else? Would you think it might be worth your while to give out a small bribe prize to the children who can resist the temptation?" Seriously? Every time I want to tell a story to a group of children I have to bribe them all to not tell the story to others? I have a better idea - how about I just remind them of the expectation that they listen whilst I read, and prompt them again when they forget?

"Having them sit together as a team and hold hands as a reminder not to speak during the story?" Um - almost guaranteed to have them squirming and giggling together, I would have thought.

"Or maybe consider confining the reading to books no-one has heard before (harder to do)." Almost impossible to find good quality books that NO-ONE in the class has had read to them

"Just genuinely curious about the strategies you have in place for this sort of fairly predictable incident, given that children are inclined to relate things they encounter to themselves and their lives, and that they like to 'share with the class'?" Yes - there is an expectation that they listen quietly. Obviously there are regular points during a story where "audience participation" is encouraged, and as a class we discuss what might happen next, but children do know that shouting out is not welcomed. Sometimes children forget, or get over excited. Then they are gently reminded. If a child is being persistently disruptive I might ask them to move to sit on a different part of the carpet (next to me, normally). Gosh - does this sound a lot like what may well have happened to the OPs child?

"I don't think asking for comments beforehand is going to affect the likelihood of them chiming in with comments during the story." Well, I seem to recall that you started off your argument on this thread by suggesting that if the teacher had done just that then all problems would have been avoided. I quote: "She should have invited comments about the book before she started, maybe asking who has heard the story before, who has it at home, what do they think the story is about based on the front cover, who do they think the main character is, based on the cover, etc. That way the children would have been drawn into it and all the chit chat would have been dispensed with."

My assumption is based on the fact that the child told her neighbour she had the book at home. That is one of the first things a child would have said to the teacher if she had been asked for input.

What if the teacher did ask, but the child wasn't chosen to speak?
Shall we, as a class, sit and listen to every child's passing thought, or is the teacher allowed to end a discussion so that the book can actually be opened?

Sorry, mathanxiety, but as a 'consumer of education', you are most definitely not entitled to make so many assumptions about a teacher you have never, ever met over the internet.

There is no reason to assume the teacher was rude - and no reason for you to challenge my assumption that she may not have been. And that's just the first of many that you base your now ludicrous arguments on.

The fire drill example is an interesting one

I do some work with pre-schoolers and the first time they experience a fire drill they pretty much do the exact opposite of what they're expected to do, hate the waiting around for the all-clear, and yes need all sorts of diverting snd engaging to get through the first time, or even the first few times.

This is why we have fire drills. Because young children and adults alike can't necessarily be expected to act rationally in such a situation - and practice and familiarity make perfect.

Regular drills help to turn it into a routine thing where expectations are laid and eventually understood.

Again, these are young children we're talking about. By the time they get to school, they've hopefully had some exposure to this sort of thing. Likewise, trips outside the school, walking along the road in groups and keeping safe, swimming excursions, etc, etc.

You start small, you build confidence and understanding, and you work up. Your expectations of their behaviour increase.

You don't expect full, 100% compliant behaviour immediately, first time doing it, unless you are deluded, inexperienced and utterly unprepared.

As a 'consumer' of education I am entitled to judge the performance she delivers and so are all parents, who pay her salary after all through taxes

I'm surprised it took over 300 posts before we got to that point.

I missed the end of that, ilovesooty - hang on a minute, mathanxiety, are you seriously suggesting that you personally are entitled to judge her performance, via some gossip over the internet, because 'after all', you 'pay her salary'?

You have totally lost it now.

I do feel somewhat sorry for the poor DC who actually wants to hear the story, and most do, that we have to go through all this garbage, first instead of saying 'if you can't keep quiet and listen you need to move'. You would think the sensible parent wouldn't give it more than a passing comment about the advisability of listening.

Sorry-comma in the wrong place!

Math- just how many times do you need it explaining ! It's not the fact that she was chatting which was the problem.It's the fact that she was openly defiant. A child of more than 4 and a half SHOULD know that this is disrespectful and downright rude to a teacher in this way.

If all 24 chikldren were like the girl here, I suspect that by the time Math had encouraged them all to have their say, negotiated with them and distracted them while they're exploring their world around them, no learning would get done at all. I agree with the posters who commented on the needs of the class as a whole...