to think dd's teacher was maybe over-reacting a tad?

[Northernlurker]

Apparently dd has been 'very rude' today as per the message from teacher via after school club. Very rude consists of not listening to story but talking to friends and then saying 'no' when told to stop and 'no' when told to move. Now I agree this is very rude and the teacher obviously dealt with it at length because dd was in floods of tears when collected by after school club. I have spoken to dd and she was talking because the book was one we have at home and she was telling her friends as much. At the end of a hot day, at the end of term her attention is shot to pieces as is that of most of the other kids. AIBU to think that a message home about this infraction was overkill. She didn't get a warning, she didn't get a timeout - and really what am i supposed to do about this? i speak to dd about her day every day. i am clear about what is expected but seeing as she's a stubborn 4 who has been at school less than a term i don't expect miracles. Frankly impressed we've got this far.

Or should I be grovelling tomorrow?

She was upset in a setting which should be meeting her needs as well as setting boundaries for her
And look what a hoo-ha ensued when the teacher tried to set a boundary...

mathanxiety, you have said EVERYTHING of the sort - you did allude to teacher skiving for 2 days ("the teacher took the last two days of term off after all, perhaps for health reasons, but perhaps because term couldn't end fast enough for her?"), the whole bloody thread's about how you understand better than any other educational professional on here how to handle 4 year olds, and then, ridiculously, you posted a poem about beating children and declared that we hadn't moved on.

If I am telling a story as a teacher and I ask a 4 yr old to stop talking and to move-it isn't an option! They move. Perhaps OP would do better if she got her DD used to following instructions!

As a secondary school teacher I keep getting flashforwards every time I read this thread combined with memories of many other unfairly maligned little darlings.

OP-get over it! She was disciplined in an appropriate manner, she cried because she didn't like getting told off. Instead of nursing a grievance, accept that she was rude and remind her to speak politely in future and to do as she is told. Or else continue to make excuses until you end up on here telling us why it was unfair of her university tutor to object to her not handing in her essay!

OP- If your DD is ,at this tender age, already being openly defiant to a teacher -what do you think she is going to be like by Y6, or by Y9.Children generally get LESS deferential towards teachers as they get older not more so.
Also you irritate me by talking as though your DD is just a ickle baby.She's going on 5 for goodness sake.

Aridane1 - I don't see any suggestion that the OP thinks of her DD as an 'ickle baby'. Far from it - she's acknowledged that her DD shouldn't have responded in the way she did. but she's talking about an apparent over-reaction by the teacher and some concerns about the way it was handled.

New to this as my eldest is only 5. Perhaps I'm being PFBish, but children in reception are still little.

I'm really not sure whether to bother commenting further as it's plain that many posters don't bother reading the thread properly anyway. At least I assume that's the case from the number of people advising that what I should have done is agree with the school that dd was in the wrong, tell her as much and instruct her to obey instructions in the future.
Thing is - that is EXACTLY what I did tell her to do.

I wouldn't bother either, NL. I think it has all been said and now it is mostly a bunfight between mathanxiety and the rest of the world. It seems less and less relevant to your post as it progresses....

No, northern, people aren't reading so I wouldn't bother if I were you either.

To be fair to math it's clear to me that she did read it. But I'm not asking you to agree or disagree.

I think your instincts and behaviour were right.

Bruffin, I was referring to Cricketball's post:

'Not an attitude but my experience as a girl myself and a professional who has seen it many times (also seen the winking, smiles, laughing to friends when they think they aren't being watched)'

Four year olds winking, smiling and laughing to friends . Better watch them like a hawk. Otherwise they might wink, or smile -- or even laugh^... If they are let get away with such shocking behaviour they will have the teacher peeled and eaten before 10 o'clock.

I am profoundly unimpressed by the mindset of this professional.

Floggingmolly -- There is a huge difference between giving an order to move or to stop talking and setting boundaries. Setting boundaries in an appropriate way involves developing a relationship of mutual respect. A teacher who sets boundaries using positive discipline creates a class atmosphere where sharp reprimands are not going to be necessary. A teacher who favours direct confrontation of four year olds is not setting boundaries in a positive way. She is treating the four year old children like army recruits and using fear of punishment or embarrassment in order that the children should learn their place, a goal that is different from that of proper boundary setting. A teacher is not a drill sergeant.

DrSeuss -- another prophet of doom I see. On the one hand this is no big deal and the DD needs to get over herself. On the other hand this is the tip of the iceberg and next time we hear of this little madam she will be caught on camera looting shops. Make up your mind.

Ariadne -- four is exactly the age when a teacher should expect children to be saying No in determined fashion. Have you ever heard of the Terrible Twos? Another tender age there. There is still plenty of the Terrible Twos left in children up to about the age of 6.

'Children generally get LESS deferential towards teachers as they get older not more so...' -- if this has been your experience, Ariadne, then I think you should take this as a sign that you or other teachers are doing something wrong in the early years environment. Perhaps expecting too much of very young children? Perhaps not encouraging an atmosphere of mutual courtesy? Perhaps showing children in many ways that you don't really like them and have no patience for them?
And the idea that four year olds are naturally deferential I really wonder how much experience you have. Children of four are curious, boisterous, immature yet eager to please the adult, and a teacher who understands this will capitalise on it and create a win-win situation, not one where children are anxious about retribution above all else and eventually see themselves and the teachers as enemies (which leads to that 'less deferential as they get older' thing you mentioned).

maths - you have taken my quote out of context/missed parts out (but I would expect that in order for you to prove a point)

when I said "'Not an attitude but my experience as a girl myself and a professional who has seen it many times (also seen the winking, smiles, laughing to friends when they think they aren't being watched)" also included the winking/smiling/laughing to friends whilst turning on the waterworks when being told off....I can remember doing it myself at that age (especially if it meant getting my sisters into trouble!)

in terms of your suggestion that a teacher should expect children to say No at 4 I'm sorry but this has just left me speechless! So you would expect a 4 year old to tell their teacher no when they have been told to move?

Well have read it all and I am still with maths. Ok she's not a teacher, but any teacher with her value system and RESPECT for children can come teach my son anytime.

Some of the comments I have read by people who are teachers make me cringe and I sincerely hope my son doesn't ever have the misfortune to be taught by you. In fact if I were you, I would hope you don't have to teach my son because with some of the attitudesdisplayed here you would find yourself answering formal complaints. Children are little people, not things to be controlled. If you don't like children, who by their very nature will challenge - it's their job, then go work in an office!

I am not a teacher but do work with vulnerable children and young people and effective relationships and communication will, IMHO, always win over power and fear!!

Using the fact you are bigger and stronger and are the teacher to make kids do/not do, things things is nothing short of bullying.

Building positive relationships with the children in the class will result in them WANTING to do what you ASK of them and wanting to please you. Far more productive and far better role-modelling than simply making demands and expecting they be carried out because you are bigger,stronger or because of the job you do!!

OP it does sound like there are many things you are not happy with and not just this one incident.Sadly because it is about education then the attitude is 'suck it up'. If you felt really uncomfortable about a childminder or similar then I suspect you'd be being advised to go with your gut and do somethng about it. Good luck and I hope that future education is a a more positive experience for your daughter.

how is telling a child to stop talking and when told no to move away from where she is sitting and still being told no then reporting this to the parent using power and fear?

These are basic rules that are needed in order for a classroom with 30 children in to function

"A teacher who sets boundaries using positive discipline creates a class atmosphere where sharp reprimands are not going to be necessary. A teacher who favours direct confrontation of four year olds is not setting boundaries in a positive way. She is treating the four year old children like army recruits and using fear of punishment or embarrassment in order that the children should learn their place, a goal that is different from that of proper boundary setting. A teacher is not a drill sergeant"

I work with some excellent teachers with great insight into children and great rapport that you describe maths.

Despite all their best efforts, there are occasions when a child is rude, and will be reprimanded. Sometimes that child may have a wobbly lip as a result.

Honestly, I do think that dealing with a class of 30 is so different from what you describe.

cricket saying 'No' is very much age/stage appropriate. Children of this age are discovering that they have an impact on the world and that they can control some things.ld never say no to an adult

It does need to be corrected but in a way which promotes learning and not simply because the teacher says so!

I worked with children of this age and it is not a rare occurrence. In fact I'd say it is regular and pretty 'normal'. The difference is how the adults deal with it.

I know of someone who actually said to children in his class, ' we don't say no to adults'. Now this teacher is fantastic and lovely and kind. He has great relationships with children in his class and really does support them fantastically. However he thought this was an ok thing to say. I think this comes from a preconceived idea by a large proportion of society, that children should never say 'no' to an adult and that it is disrespectful and from not being completely aware of the ugliness which is around for many children.

I pointed out that this was infact a dangerous statement to make. It took some discussion before he realised that this statement and the general belief that we don't say 'no' to adults, can actually put children at huge risk, when faced with a potential abuser. ( And I know that simply saying no won't stop the abuse, but it does have a huge impact for the child). He does now agree and has decided to use different language for such correction when needed.

Children need to be able to say no to adults but do also need to be aware that in class most things are non-negotiable. However sometimes teachers do make mistakes and it is important that a child is able to question if they think a teacher is wrong, as long as it is respectfully done. But respect goes both ways and I know there are SOME teacher who get by simply by using the inequality of power between adults and children. IME there are the teachers who are frazzled and find the kids really hard work.

Actually, in our home we actively encourage our son to question adults and their motivesin a polite and respectful way. It is called helping him to keep himself safe!

Will get off my soap box now...........teachers have a tough job and I wouldn't want to do it. I am not teacher bashing. I am simply aware, that as with every profession, there are good and bad. IMO those who are not good have the potential to really damage children's self esteem and educational potential and should be sacked or at least counselled out of their job!!

Your 'clarification' only adds words, Cricketballs. Makes no difference to the wrongness of your ideas.

I would expect a teacher to give the four year olds a chance to get their comments about the book off their chests before reading. I have said that a few times now. The teacher would have therefore avoided a situation where a child was embarrassed and had her back up when the order to move was given. I don't know why it's so hard for you and others here to accept that there are more ways of accomplishing the goal of a quiet, productive classroom with everyone respectful of the rules than direct confrontation of four year old children. I don't know why there seem to be so many people here with such cockeyed expectations of the behaviour of four year old children that they could even use the word 'rude' for a child who was so upset by this incident that she was crying when sent on to the after school club.

'in terms of your suggestion that a teacher should expect children to say No at 4 I'm sorry but this has just left me speechless! So you would expect a 4 year old to tell their teacher no when they have been told to move?'

There is a 50/50 chance that this will happen with any given child no any given day. A teacher who leaves herself exposed to the possibility that a child will put her on the spot like that is an idiot who knows very little about management of children or creating a class atmosphere of respect.

(Gettinghappy) 'Building positive relationships with the children in the class will result in them WANTING to do what you ASK of them and wanting to please you. Far more productive and far better role-modelling than simply making demands and expecting they be carried out because you are bigger,stronger or because of the job you do.'

A teaching staff is playing a long game here, and that is something many posters here seem not to understand. If you want a positive, respectful educational atmosphere in later years in a school you need to pay attention to how you mould the children when they have their first taste of functioning in the group. If the teacher doesn't have a clear idea of long term goals (and it seems many here don't) she will spend a lot of her time putting out fires in the reception room instead of building a firm foundation, and will hand on to the next teacher children who are used to getting attention for negative behaviour. Hence the less deferential attitude as they get older that you have observed.

Gettinghappy -- I had a sentence there where I agreed with your paragraph that I quoted but must have deleted it somehow.

But how do we know the teacher hasn't done exactly what you say she should have? Talked to the children about the book, asked them if they'd read it etc.etc. How do we know that even after all that and the other children had settled and were ready for the story, op's dd still wanted to talk. Teacher asks her to be quiet now so she can start the story and that's when the 'argument' starts. Even then we don't know the exact words the teacher used. You are assuming a humiliation, I doubt it. And I would be cross if my child was left waiting for a story while the teacher had to explain, yet again, that there are times when voices need to be off.

You also assume the teacher hasn't spent any time setting boundaries or talking about expected behaviour etc. There is no way that she wouldn't have done this.

Exactly my thoughts, Lee

I would expect a teacher to give the four year olds a chance to get their comments about the book off their chests before reading. I have said that a few times now. The teacher would have therefore avoided a situation where a child was embarrassed and had her back up when the order to move was given

And you have absolutely no idea whether she did or she didn't, math, so to base an entire argument on it is ridiculous.

I often feel in a parallel universe.
You have to actually think of the rest of the 4 yr olds. One DC being a 'free spirit' is actually a pain in the neck to the majority who are being disturbed by her-they actually want to hear the story-and to my mind they have the right to hear it.
As a teacher I am not asking her to be quiet, and moving her because she won't, to exert my power-it is so that the rest can have a pleasant time!

and that it why parenting is different from teaching...

If the teacher had invited the children to share their thoughts then I am 99% confident they would have settled down and been ready to listen. The fact that she shared something about the book and not some unrelated remark doubles my suspicion that here is a teacher at the end of a term that can't end soon enough, phoning it in. I can't know for sure, but I have seen classrooms where the teachers have done as I have described and they have been able to start and continue uninterrupted.

The other information about this teacher indicates that she sees the inclusion of three latecomers to school as an imposition on her, a disruption to her class; she has not been to bothered to do the extra work the arrival of those children should have entailed for her, they are not on the birthday board, etc. The child was sent on to the after school club crying. So putting it all together, I am forming a picture of a teacher who is a bit lazy, resentful, tetchy, and inclined to wallow in a feeling of being put upon.

LeQ -- 'I don't think a teacher expecting a 4 year to do as they're told, when asked, and then reprimanding that child for deliberately ignoring the request is what most people would call harsh measures is it? Is it, really?'

Mathanxiety -- 'LeQ, it is both harsh and completely unrealistic, and if reprimands that result in tears are the sum total of that teacher's bag of tricks, I am sorry for the entire class, because that makes for a very unpleasant and negative learning environment for everyone. '

Don't quote selectively. You think instant obedience is reasonable to expect from a four year old. I think that is unreasonable and I think that a reprimand in that case is harsh and also unreasonable. Instant and complete obedience is not natural and is not reasonable to expect in a four year old.

As I said above, I think any teacher who issues orders in that fashion to a four year old is setting herself up for a 50/50 chance that her position will be challenged and is therefore an idiot (because she is an adult who is unfortunately not behaving like one) and completely unprofessional.

Feenie, are you actually able to read?