to think dd's teacher was maybe over-reacting a tad?

[Northernlurker]

Apparently dd has been 'very rude' today as per the message from teacher via after school club. Very rude consists of not listening to story but talking to friends and then saying 'no' when told to stop and 'no' when told to move. Now I agree this is very rude and the teacher obviously dealt with it at length because dd was in floods of tears when collected by after school club. I have spoken to dd and she was talking because the book was one we have at home and she was telling her friends as much. At the end of a hot day, at the end of term her attention is shot to pieces as is that of most of the other kids. AIBU to think that a message home about this infraction was overkill. She didn't get a warning, she didn't get a timeout - and really what am i supposed to do about this? i speak to dd about her day every day. i am clear about what is expected but seeing as she's a stubborn 4 who has been at school less than a term i don't expect miracles. Frankly impressed we've got this far.

Or should I be grovelling tomorrow?

Oakmaiden, the OP didn't say this was a child who cried at the drop of a hat. I think she wouldn't have mentioned the floods of tears if this had been a regular occurrence.

I am not saying there should never be correction. What I am saying is that there should be a chance for the children to get their comments off their chests before the reading session starts. It's a good idea because it draws the children's attention to the book and allows them to relate the book to themselves and their homes and allows the teacher to whip up some curiosity about the story.

If there is correction it should not be of the sort that makes a child feel embarrassed or small, or make her cry.

I'm not addressing the OP, admittedly - but I did want to reply (pedantically?) to one piece of misinformation which has appeared in this thread a couple of times (and on other threads too).
It is not a legal requirement for your child to receive any form of education until the term AFTER they turn 5.
This is not true of the entire UK. In Northern Ireland, at least, children are required to start as early as 4 years, 2 months. (Yes, home schooling might be an option, but obviously that is not an answer for everyone.)
I understand that the OP probably does not live in NI, but I thought it might interest people to know that there are different requirements in different parts of the UK.

I am impressed that a kid being a bit of a snot and getting told off for it has resulted in a 220+ post thread.

My kids are snots all the time, they get told off, sometimes they whinge about this but mostly they get over it.

Well, yes, it was rude behaviour. But not entirely out of character for a 4-year old, I'd have thought, neither of my two actually being four, yet...

I am so glad that we start school at age five here, and that's age 5 across the board, i.e. when the child turns five, not at the start of the school year after they turn 5.

I must say though, that I have full respect for teachers taking on entire classrooms of pupils of any age, but especially 4-year olds. I couldn't do it in a month of Sundays.

I would chalk it up to experience, have a chat with your DD about expectations and move on.

"I think Mathanxiety's posts make it fairly obvious she's not a teacher, Feenie! She wouldn't last 5 minutes..."

Not in the UK, maybe, but I'm not sure that's too much of an insult...

Math's approach in one which is followed in many countries around the world, with considerably higher rankings than the UK.

I don't disagree with the notion that children need firm discipline at home and that they need boundaries for their own well-being, sense of security and assurance of their place in the world.

But that is a very different matter from this thread discussion and the wider issues here, re teacher-led discipline, expectations of 4-year olds and the various approaches deemed best.

Math - your thoughts on this thread have been really reassuring, but you're fighting a losing battle arguing with parents who can't see for themselves the sorts of results your ideas lead to.

It's just very different in the UK. Probably it needs to be because of the population density and various other issues, I don't know. Luckily I don't need to know (as much as I miss the UK for a myriad other reasons).

I'm on a bit of a roll, here...

Interesting that someone should ask if you're in Stepford, math, as if your approach is some sort of utopian ideal, rather than one that is played out in schools and curriculums all around the world...

Says it all, really.

There seem to be a huge amount of assumptions going on here. None of us were in the classroom, and the OP hasn't said very much about what her dd thought of the whole thing (she has hopefully forgotten by now in any case). It is perfectly possible that the teacher did have a chat with the class about the book before reading, and even if she didn't when asked not to talk she should not have been so defiant.

Now it might be that the teacher isn't very good. Perfectly possible. Or she may have been coming down with whatever has kept her out of school for the last couple of days. But none of us know that. On the face of it child was rude, got told off. Was more rude and got told off some more. Child got upset. All sounds very normal to me, especially at the end of term when small children are tired and worn. It was very unfortunate that the child then had to go to after school club when she probably needed to go home. I can imagine that that might in itself have been enough for more tears.

Both my children had good reception teachers, both of them got told off at times, and both got upset at times. dd was generally very good at school and adored her teacher. If her teacher told her off she got very upset because she adored her teacher. ds was often quite bad at school, and got upset because he was frustrated (getting told off wasn't really a big concern in his life). Not much different than in nursery except there there was a an adult:child ratio of 1:6 rather than 1:15 or so. Teachers don't generally use time out do they?

I think you may be overthinking it slightly. I would simply put it in the past.

Your DD has behaved like a normal 4 year old. She's certainly not particularly naughty or less able to concentrate than most. However, while her behaviour is normal, it's still the teacher's job to deal with it. Just like all parenting. None of us expect our DC to behave as perfect full-formed adults but we still tell them off when they fail to do so.

The teacher has told you because this is the age of communication. It is part of their duty to inform you. Because this has come via a message rather than in person it feels more formal, but it really isn't. I've had this once or twice with DS and when I've spoken to his teacher she's been at pains to reassure me that DS is in no way singled out as a problem child and that his behaviour is perfectly normal. But she wants me to know in case my DS brings it up and I'm wondering what it's all about.

Children in school often cry when they are not used to being told to stop doing something,sharply.

I know a child who cries if you even give her a disappointed look,or if someone "tells" on her. She is 8. She cries and sobs and goes totally over the top, and succeeds in disrupting a whole class. What hope is there?

I am sure I was told off in school. I believe I may have been quite young. I do not blame the teacher to this day for the mental distress I have suffered over the years.

Child was rude, debatable. Child did something she should not have done, not debatable.

Teacher told her off. Appropriate? Maybe, maybe not.

Teacher upset the child to a great extent. Maybe, or maybe child overreacted.

Child gets told off once to the extent she cries but is not sobbing for hours. Hardly likely as an isolated event to cause permanent scarring.

Teacher makes one child cry once Hardly newsworthy.

The child has probably forgotten it even happened.

(It is possible for a teacher to contain the problem of tattling in a classroom too, Jamdonut, and circumvent all the annoying issues that arise from that. It is also possible to refer an 8 year old for assessment for emotional problems if class is being disrupted constantly by her tears.)

is it also possible math that the 8 year old is attention seeking and looking for sympathy rather than anyone focusing on the fact she was in the wrong?

kids; especially girls can turn the water works on to suit themselves - sometimes it is shock that someone has actually pulled them up on their behaviour rather than going 'there, there' other times it is to try and distract attention from their behaviour in the first place.

The op's DD was in the wrong; she was told more than once that she was in the wrong and the water works started when it suited her i.e. plenty of witnesses to the fact she was crying to try and detract from the issue that she behavioured inappropriately

To be honest I would watch her very carefully it seems like she has learnt very well how to pull the strings with mum.....

Yes of course she could she attention seeking, and it seems it is getting her lots of attention. If this is causing a classroom problem then it should be seen to. Why is the teacher putting up with this? Why is the teacher not calling in reinforcements if she has done all she can to defuse the problem? A child who is attention seeking at the age of 8 to the point where she disrupts a class regularly has an emotional problem. It is not a disciplinary issue, it is a bona fide problem requiring expert attention. Yes, attention. Not because the child wants attention but because she needs the correct sort of attention.

So now girls are manipulative horrors? And this four year old child turned on the waterworks when it suited her and will need watching in the future?

I really despair. The attitudes on this thread are incredibly vindictive, harsh and misguided. I actually feel the term 'willfully ignorant' would not be out of place.

twisting words a bit there maths - I did not say that girls are manipulative horrors; just that girls are very good (myself included ) at turning on the waterworks when it suits

I'm not harsh, vindictive or misguided - but very, very experienced of lots of children (not just my own!)

Cricketballs - you don't know my daughter. She didn't 'turn on the waterworks' in front of me. She was upset and crying at the end of school when the teacher was angry with her. There were no witnesses for her to 'play' to. The classroom was empty, the other parents outside and the school club worker by the door. She left the classroom with the school club worker, without any resolution of the incident other than the message for me that she was very rude. I take exception also to your implication that female children are inherently manipulative - because that IS what you are saying in your post and it's a very troubling attitude.

cricket Re girls: 'turning on the waterworks'.

Boys of that age find different ways of manipulating adults or winding them up. Ultimately those techniques are destructive but outwardly, rather than inwardly.

Neither is good for constructive adult behaviour, which is what we all want, isn't it?

I don't think either sex is being deliberately manipulative. They're just babies who are upset, tired, confused and unable to deal with difficult situations in a sophisticated manner and do the things that we expect them to do.

The skill is finding ways to deal with it. And as adults we should be able to do that, especially if we choose to work with children.

math's solution seems good to me.

Not an attitude but my experience as a girl myself and a professional who has seen it many times (also seen the winking, smiles, laughing to friends when they think they aren't being watched)

Sometimes, you have to look at the bigger picture; she was told off and cried because of it - you admit she was in the wrong, but she has favoured your sympathy because she cried....

cricket I don't 'turn on the waterworks' and I never have done. It's not a matter of pride for me to remain dry-eyed but the way that I am.

Maybe life would have been a little easier for me sometimes if I had. Who knows?

But that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about 4 year olds and the way a caring professional should deal with them. I'm going to cut them a bit of slack whether they're boys or girls.

cricketballs - you are talking about my daughter so lay off with the implication she's Mata Hari in waiting.
I am upset about this because she was upset in a setting which should be meeting her needs as well as setting boundaries for her. Just like at home.

Well I've got 3 boys and they've all turned the water works on at some point...especially aged 4 so I don't think it's particularly a 'girl thing'.

I still think the whole thing has been blown out of proportion though to be honest.

Kids get told off when they play up, sometimes they cry because they get told off.

But mostly, they learn from it.

'Speak roughly to your little boy,
And beat him when he sneezes;
He only does it to annoy,
Because he knows it teases.

Chorus -
Wow wow wow

I speak roughly to my boy,
I beat him when he sneezes;
For he can thoroughly enjoy,
The pepper when he pleases.'

• by Lewis Carroll (song of the Duchess to the pig baby).

That poem was meant as a parody, not to be taken seriously as advice on treatment of children.

I see we haven't moved on much.

Dont be so ridiculous and judgemental Maths, you make an awful lot of unpleasant assumptions about people ie the teacher was skiving for two days etc, nobody else understands children like you do, the thread is full of child abusers etc

A 4 year old crying after being told off is a non event, they get over it, children are remarkably robust if you let them be.

Thankfully my dcs are teenagers now, nice polite thoughtful children who had good old fashioned teachers who they adored because they knew where they stood with them.
Hopefully Northernlurkers dd has learnt a lesson and will not be rude to a teacher again, lesson learned and she will be happier for it in the long run because she knows what the boundaries are in class.

I have said nothing of the sort but heyho.

at the idea allegedly professional idea that children of four should not be doing any winking, smiling, or laughing to friends when they think they aren't being watched.

If you think the attitude of this professional with many years of experience with four year old children is in any way typical of teachers in the UK then I really feel very sorry for British children.

What on earth are you on about, the child was talking and then said no twice to a teacher, where on does it say she was told off for winking and smiling with her friends.

I don't think that anyone expects a 4 yr old not to talk in the wrong place-they should however stop when asked and not say 'no' and refuse to move when asked! That is what you need to address.
There is no need to go into school and there is no need to say much to your DC except that it was her own fault she was crying-she should have done as she was asked!