AIBU to stop buyng The Independant because of this ad?

[NowThenWreck]

The one from Fathers4Justice, where they accuse MN of:

"carrying abusive and distressing anti-male content which promotes gender hatred against men and boys"
and, apparently, labels "men and boys as rapist, peados and wife beaters."

The ad has a lovely picture of a sad little boy with words like "rioter" and "homeless" and "sperm bank" written on his skin.

I am confused, as I have never come across a thread on here where people routinely call men paedophiles and rapists. In fact, usually, if someone implies that a man being left alone with a child is dodgy, posters will pile in and say "God, don't you know not all men are paedos.?"

As I understand it, this is a forum for discussion, not a political movement with a manifesto. There are many and varied opinions on MN, and the minute one opinion is aired, another will be along to refute it.

Or should I just laugh at F4J? The ad is quite gruesomely funny.

cornsilkidy I agree it is extremely offensive. and factually untrue. Can you Slander a site though? Is that why they think they can get away with it even if MN does nothing (doesn't stoop to their level/ waste of money and all that). I wonder if Mand S will be as toleratant?

they're slandering us really

is slandering a word?

''Although I can't imagine they think much of the "I believe you" campaign either.''

Of course they don't, remember spydii over in the original thread, he thinkswomen are liars when they say that their partner has inflicted violence on them. If I were feeling mischievous I could point out using f4j logic, the beliefs of one member is a reflection of the beliefs of the whole organisation, so that means all of f4j believe this misogynistic lie. spydii isn't the only f4j member I've seen make this claim either.

I am also surprised the independent ran it given that they have given a lot of column inches to the I Believe You campaign. You wouldn't have thought that F4J were their cup of tea.

I don't really see why the 'I believe you' campaign is being brought into this

As far as I'm aware, they haven't mentioned it at all, or have they?

Sorry Worra was absolutely not trying to twist your words and I admit rabid was an overstatement.

I asked for examples of anti-manism (I refuse to type mis*ndry ) and you posted those two examples. I can see that 'menz' could be interpreted that way, although generally I've seen it used to deplore statements along the lines of "but men get raped/hit" too, which although true do not help discussions about rape prosecution or whatever. I also don't see that as a term that encompases all men, just those that want every discussion to be about them, and indeed those women who are frightened of challenging the status quo.

However the undertone you mention...that's quite subjective isn't it? What you may interpret as an undertone I may genuinely never notice. However if someone was to post that 'all men want to rape women' that is a definitively man-hating statement. And that's what I'd like to have some examples of.

This is exactly why I would prefer it if we could stop referring to everyone by mentioning their gender. Some people are crap parent, crap partners, violent, abusive and so on and so forth. But I dare say that as many of those are women as are men.

Complaints on here are always specific - to complain generally "men don't help around the house and are crap parents" on here would earn you enough biscuits to keep Gordon Brown in tea times for the rest of his days. Specific complaints on a website that is primarily used by women are going to be primarily about men, because most of the users have male partners (insert usual disclaimer for same sex partners and male posters here). But that's not representative of any sort of gender bias on Mumsnet other than a bias in the gender of its users that mean there are more female Mumsnetters than male Mumsnetters.

F4J have earned the privilege of my inaugural

They were probably just scared of taking on the WI and saw MN as a softer target to project their straw woman upon.

I do think HQ should seek legal advice (imagine you have done). I see a vast range of views, values, experiences and interests on here, nothing that suggests a manifesto or single position on anything, in fact I wouldn't want to be identified with many of the comments I read but don't believe for a moment that I am, what with it being an open discussion forum.

I made the point on a fairly gentle thread here a couple of months ago that F4J are just not very canny campaigners, they're good at grabbing attention but then don't have a coherent, convincing position to share when they get it, so let themselves and their cause down, which must be frustrating for people with more articuate views on the same subject.

A few weeks later I heard a F4J spokesman interviewed on the Today programme's prime 8.10am slot, saying that the unfairness they perceive in the family courts (possibly reasonably, a well-evidenced discussion would be interesting) is the worst legal injustice or human rights abuse perpetrated by recent UK governments. The interviewer, clearly taken aback, used to dealing with serious, well-briefed interviewees, repeated this back to him and he said yes definitely, without hesitation. (So War in Iraq, attempt to extend detention without trial etc are trivial in comaprison). That's not an interview, or a position, it's a rant.

As for the Indie, I hope you'll write to them asking for an explanation of their choice. I don't think anyone could make F4J look sillier than F4J can and if they want to pay money to do it, that's up to them. I suspect MN's advetisers know which way their bread is buttered.

I agree about the use of this child, although it does make the ad even more ridiculous, which shows F4J up as the witch hunting, ill informed, cape wearing tossers that they are.

dolly

I've never seen a 'all men want to rape women' statement but I have seen a 'men hate women' statement by someone who then went on to publish some online statistics about how many women are beaten/murdered by their partners.

I challenged it at the time (around 5 or 6 months ago) but I can't find the thread so I can only assume it was deleted?

For the record, as much as I can understand why some people would view MN as anti male...because I really do think there is an anti male undertone at times/in general depending on which topic you're on, F4J are being ridiculous painting this whole site with the same brush.

Some F4J members are completely feckless, drunken, non maintenance paying 'Fathers' (like my ex) but that doesn't mean they all are....so the whole M&S thing is a bit pathetic really.

Add that to the fact I doubt M&S give two shits whether F4J members shop there or not and it makes the whole thing quite laughable

Mrs Heffley, sorry to pick up a post so long gone, but you mentioned keeping an eye on the feminism boards because the implication is you're more likely to see man-hating on there.

Can I just point out that not one regular FWR poster has ever labelled my DP a potential rapist who is unable to use the washing machine or who cannot be trusted to look after his own children for an evening. Seen comments like that on other boards though.

My DP was actually very offended by some posts on the 'Sensitive question about H' thread mentioned earlier, and they came from a poster who has been supportive of F4J in the past.

I don't think it should happen anywhere,I hate it.

Any anti male,stereotypical comment hurts my boys and my lovely dp.

My dp has been upset by some things I've shown him on here too.

Worra, maybe that's the thing. I only really hang out on FWR and Relationships so I maybe I just don't come across those kinds of posts. I occasionally make it to 'The Litter Tray'...

I think there are individual posters who sometimes make sweeping statements (as my example of the thread last night demonstrates) but I see them as just that, individuals who are not representative of the majority.

I am seriously shocked by that ad! I cannot believe the Independent ran it. I am sure both MN and M&S are talking to their lawyers right now.

Hecate, your post should be framed and hung on the wall of F4J headquarters. That is so, so true.

I am now off to investigate whether I can make a complaint to the Advertising Standards Authority. What a vile attack on Justine, MNHQ, and all of us.

I agree,often they are rounded on.

There are occasions though that if a thread is being read by a lot of those with extreme feminist views they can descend into mild feminist bullying who shout down others with more balanced views.I'm afraid I've seen that several times and it's just down to luck as to who is reading a thread at that time.

The ONLY think I can think on MN that where this really applies is in some of the threads in feminism that quote feminist theory that talk about things like - men want to hurt and abuse women. But this is always in quotes and then discussed. If peopel are referring to thsi as man hating, what they are really doing is criticising some feminist theory. And thats fine to criticise it, but it is different from the views of the majority of the posts here.

It's really odd that it says men and boys. Whether you think MN is anti-men or not (I don't think it is), somewhere fairly close to 50% of posters must be mothers to boys. Given that the vast majority of parents adore their children, why would we be anti-boy?

MrsHeffley I agree with you. It hurts mine too, I was just pointing out that I have only seen it once on FWR but hundreds of times elsewhere (its one reason I rarely venture onto Chat for eg.) and so of all the boards to keep a watch on, FWR doesn't need to be top of your list.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1419965-Agenda-much

Is the thread f4j are getting all hot and bothered about. This is where all their accusations come from. One thread where some f4j members got in to a bunfight with some mners (of which i was one).

A very good point MainlyMaynie. Maybe it's to do with the 'Let girls be girls' campaign, maybe they think we don't want boys to exist at all

Going by the F4J examples that were around a week or so back that's about their level of comprehension

Lesley I've seen it on boys in education a lot,the particularly nasty post I read said that all boys were disruptive and should be made to sit down and shut the fuck up.

You see it a lot in relationships and aibu too however if it is a balanced audience such comments are often rounded on.

I've noticed you often get the more extreme posts later at night.

Okay I don't tend to go in education or relationships so I wouldn't have seen it there. I have occasionally seen it in AIBU, but other posters have always challenged it there.