AIBU to stop buyng The Independant because of this ad?

[NowThenWreck]

The one from Fathers4Justice, where they accuse MN of:

"carrying abusive and distressing anti-male content which promotes gender hatred against men and boys"
and, apparently, labels "men and boys as rapist, peados and wife beaters."

The ad has a lovely picture of a sad little boy with words like "rioter" and "homeless" and "sperm bank" written on his skin.

I am confused, as I have never come across a thread on here where people routinely call men paedophiles and rapists. In fact, usually, if someone implies that a man being left alone with a child is dodgy, posters will pile in and say "God, don't you know not all men are paedos.?"

As I understand it, this is a forum for discussion, not a political movement with a manifesto. There are many and varied opinions on MN, and the minute one opinion is aired, another will be along to refute it.

Or should I just laugh at F4J? The ad is quite gruesomely funny.

I think there can be a quickness to judge on both sides.

Yeah, but what really needs to happen in this country is that the children come first... and not allowing them to be used as a weapon, which is what J4F is all about..

And being forced to see your child at a contact centre isn't fair, but at least it creates an independent record of any denial of contact by your ex.

The courts pay absolutely no attention to this... given my experience anyhow... even though, throughout the whole process the exDW has been as obstructive as possible, AND completely supported by the legal aid centre in making things as difficult and obstructive as possible, even though there is a little person involved... That is the hardest thing to come to grips with, that solicitors/legal help centres are actively encouraging this type of behaviour... because at the end of the day, there is a little boy who has been affected by this..

The sweetest memory was that when I did get to see my son after 2 months, was that he went, dad!!!!! and gave me the biggest cuddle, and wouldn't leave my side... what the most distressing bit was when i had to drop him off after the fuck all time I did get to spend with him, was him thinking that he had done something wrong, and he didn't want to leave me, but I had to hand him over after an hour...

Anyhow, I love my little boy, more than anything else in the world... and hopefully one day I will get to be able to spend the time I want to be able to spend with him...

Sitting here now in tears, and so want to have my little boy with me, so this experience hasn't been the best... and the worst thing is, he is only a 3 minute drive up the road...

I think there are some real issues with fathers trying to gain access to their children. I don't think F4J is actually dealing with those issues.

Targeting Gingerbread? Targeting M&S because they advertise on MN? Accusing MN of 'gender hatred'. Targeting solicitors and barristers? All of those things get publicity but publicity does not = gravitas.

Blocking the phonelines of a charity's helpline and publishing posters of a baby covered with graffiti does not get you taken seriously. It makes serious concerns easy to dismiss.

See? That ^ is more powerful than a poster or t-shirts. That isn't tainted by anger - however righteous. That's what it's about and that, not splashy adverts, is what will persuade people.

NarkedPuffin : I do think it is a point of desperation, because nothing else is working, because nothing is happening... I honestly think it is very much a desperation thing, because they can see that things need to change, but then nothing gets done... so you have me, in my position, and well, if you want, have a look on separated dads on facebook.... it will certainly open everyone's eyes on how many apparently dead beat and prick dads there are..... on there, all they want is fair and reasonable access to their children... I think to be honest separated dads is one of the best places to look at things... to see how many fathers want to be with their children but have not been allowed to by their ex partners.. At the end of the day, all us fathers who do care about their children is want what is the best for their children.. and for them to not be used as a bargaining chip, or used in some vindictive nature. That is what it is all about, although the mother gave birth, and has some connection with the child, the father also feels exactly the same... believe me..

MN - do I think is biased... yes I do.... at certain times, and do I think it is in particular issues, I do as well..... However, do I think a more than average majority are to be honest, bitter and twisted, and anti men... especially on particular posts, they just seem to come out... especially in this one.. As a bloke, this forum on some of the topics you just go... wtf??? and thank god that you aren't involved with in a relationship... Looking forward, I have the most amazing partner now, and wonder how the hell I got involved with the person I did in the first place..

I know it is hard sometimes to get across the full story, believe me, what I have posted here is only half the story... there have been loads of other things going on, but if I was to write them, it would be a whole novel...

Going off tack, but, I think what would get fathers and mens groups alot of respect was if they were more vocal, or vocal at all about the ridiculously small sentances given to child sex offenders and child porn.

It would be nice if men stood up and made the point that this is not normal or acceptable behaviour (if they don't think that it is).

One case stood out for me, it was when a man claimed that part of the reason that he had had sex with his eight year old was because his wife was pregnant and didn't want it. Although the judges summing up was heavly criticised, it would have gained men's group's (F4J being one) credibility to have challenged this view, also.

These types of stories are all over the place.. but for some reason they are ignored..

Birdsgottafly : Huh? Really? That is not what they are about in the first place... and would think that most of the population would agree that that would be completely wrong... fathers 4 justice, ( I actually really support a more reasonable alternative separated dads)..

I think to be honest, most men groups, would be completely supportive as would any other group be against that type of abuse.. i think in this discussion though it is completely irrelevant..

And, my post of "these type of stories" etc.... was meant to be well before birdsgottafly post...

TheJoyfulPuddlejumper : I guess to be honest, I am more supportive of Separated Dads than Dads 4 Justice... They are a great group, and have helped me through what I have gone through...

I will be around MN... cause I think it is important to have input... and plus, it is an interesting place, as my new partner is addicted to it, and we actually have a lot of discussions about it, and the more and more that we talk about things, the more it makes me appreciate how wonderful and supportive she is, and someone who I do know I want to be with for the rest of my life.

I do think that particular topics do bring out the bitter and twisted more than other topics, and it probably isn't a true representation of MN users, but it is generally the type of topics that infuriates me at certain times, with that all men are bastards... and it does happen... I also agree that there are a lot of men who are bastards, and abusive... and actually have been involved in abusive relationships before, I have felt it in reverse.

I think it is also important to hear from male posters.. sometimes you have a different perspective on things, even though sometimes, just because you are male you get slagged off.. even though you try to offer at different side of the story, they aren't always wanting to hear a different side... because they already have an opinion on how things are, and that is it... and unfortunately sometimes it is, all men are bastards... It is pretty sad really sometimes, because all my male blokes are awesome people, but then occasionally you come across people, who you think, bloody hell, what a dick head... but then some people are always seem to attract the wrong sort of bloke, and well, for me, until recently, the wrong type of woman.. at least going through this experience, I have learnt some very valuable lessons.. and it does happen... some people make the same mistakes, time and time again, and then no wonder they end up with the same old, same old.. I guess to me, that is where counselling has come in very handy, and never really would have considered it.. but to be honest, unless you go to it, and get an grasp on what is going on, there isn't much you grow and learn by until it is pointed out...

TheJoyfulPuddlejumper : Sorry to have made you cry... don't like making people sad..

Anyhow MNers... time for bed... think have written enough for tonight....

Just a minor point, I think the ad is actually a bit of an over the top rip off of a recent Dutch campain relating to the effects of broken families on kids.

Those ads had b/w images of children with emotive words written on their arms / legs etc. Not completely all over them mind. But I think it was words like 'wife beater' and 'drunk'. i.e. The negative conflict and accusation between waring partners during break up affects children in later life was the message, I think.

If I wasn't on a phone and making dd breakfast I'd search for them.

you should have stopped buying the inde years ago, around the time they started being so incredibally pro Israel when talking about what the Palestinians are/were going through.

MidnightWorry, I have heard Robert Fisk described as many things, but never 'incredibly pro-Israel'. Are you sure you mean the Independent?

auschopper, another one here who thinks you shouldn't give up. Not clear - is your contact supposed to be supervised, and your ex isn't bringing your son to the contact centre; or are you supposed to be picking him up from her house and she won't let you take him?
Would it be possible to do the handover on neutral ground/supervised by a third party?

Auschopper, thank you for answering my question. You have my deepest sympathy, I would never ever like to see a loving father denied access to his children, where there is no violence/abuse involved.

However, I agree with Narked (as usual!) -the flash stunts, the aggression and the intimidation by F4J of reputable organisations like Gingerbread, does them no favours whatsoever, and I would say is a detriment to their cause. I'm glad to see you identify more with Separated Fathers, than F4J.

Some of F4J members seem to spout anti-mother sentiment at every opportunity. On the MN FB page a number of F4J members added some really vicious comments - along the lines of 'women only have the children to get the benefits' and 'almost all domestic abuse cases are made up, to stop fathers seeing the dc out of spite'. It is just not acceptable to type these things on a parenting website.

The flip side is that F4J - instead of doing something useful like publicising your story - decide to target MN and M&S for 'gender hatred'. How, in the name of sanity, does that help anyone?

" I pay for mortgage on the marital home, fuel, car, her house, insurance, and everything else..."

I'm a bit confused here. You said your wife was living with her parents. So how can you be paying for her house. Women don't generally receive alimony these days.

Also it can't be the marital home if you've split. Who is living in it?

"where there is no violence/abuse involved"

It's probably important to note that we dont' know that.

Women in these situations are made out to be malicious and spiteful, when very often the truth of the matter is that the man has been abusive and there are good reasons for her to want her child protected.

I'm surprised so many people don't see that MN is rather a misandrist place to be.

There are regular and sweeping, deragotory, generalisations about men.

There is currently a thread about how men need 'a kick up the arse'.

Another where a poster has pointed out that a man might be a 'perv', with absolutely no justification whatsoever (on the thread about neighbour and shared heating system).

Another where someone's husband didn't do the 'right thing' with a birthday card has prompted a barrage of comments about men needing things spelled out to them. Although to be fair there are others defending the man concerned.

Mumsnet isnt' a manhating place.

(and misandrist isnt' a word no matter how much people with a men's rights agenda try and repeat it)

(and misandrist isnt' a word no matter how much people with a men's rights agenda try and repeat it)

You'd better tell the Oxford about that then, because it's in their dictionary and I think that's a more trust-worthy source than you are.

Oh dear God. Misandry IS a word. And I'm a woman with no connection to MRA's.

Misandry wasn't even in common use five or ten years ago.

It's a word popularised by MRAs who are real misogynists and really do support harm on women. It reflects nothing that exists in the real world.

The only people who use it are those who want to ignore real-life woman hatred which takes the form of rape, domestic violence, stalking, child abuse, pornography, prostitution, genocide of girls in India and China, in favour of a fantasy that there must be women out there who hate men, basically because they were critical of a few of them. It's a political flag and it's not a good one.

But lets ignore the main point in favour of the paretheses.

Mumsnet is not a manhating place. It's a stupid thing to claim.